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Siege of Orgrimmar trailer
#16
(08-23-2013, 09:44 PM)Kage Wrote: I dunt want orcs to be the badguy dammit! Orcs have an amazing heritage (Look at the Mag'har) Garrosh? He was a Mag'har dammit! All this crap has turned even the Mag'har in a more negative light simply because of the fact that Garrosh wasn't a green-skin. Which sucks. Orc shamanism is something I want to see more of, but Blizzard just wants a villain orc. At least have an orc or something be the one that saves everything Blizzard. Don't leave them with this label dammit!

Well, here's what happens in the PTR (because I raided up to Garrosh):
Spoiler alerts!
Spoiler:
All of those grunts and Scouts in Orgrimmar with custom names, like Wabang, Karr, and Kull. All of those grunts help you get inside Orgrimmar and even help you try to kill the Kor'kron agents near Grommash Hold. However they all die and have sad audio clips and it made me really sad as well.

The reason I bring these orcs up because they were all in the Third War at some point and they followed Thrall. There is hardly any backstory on these orcs but I liked how Blizzard just didn't give them an armor upgrade and a two-handed-axe and say: HERE, MOAR KOR'KRON, RAAAWR

I also thought it was relevant because you said there needs to be an orc who saves everything. They didn't save anything but help you kill a few overseers. However I felt they need to be remembered.
Spoiler:
THERE IS NO POINT TO BE ALIVE, IF YOU CAN'T DO DEADLIFT.
[Image: jon_pall_sigmarsson_b35428d97635b2e7c405...2df3c3.gif]

Spoiler:
[Image: SQ0XvlU.gif]
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#17
@Kage

Good news for you. You get assistance during the Garrosh fight. From Green Jesus himself. Hooray for you, but I'm tired of seeing Thrall's face.

I was going to make a post earlier. I don't hide my thoughts on Mists and how I feel they ruined humanity, Varian, and the other Alliance lore figures. My thoughts weren't straight, I was jumping all over the place, etc etc. I figured it would be easier if I just typed them like so:

On Varian Wrynn

Spoiler:
Varian Wrynn had a lot of potential. Even when his potential wasn't being used, I considered him to be much, much better than Anduin, who was less "For Peace" and more "My way or I run to Jaina/Velen". I know he wasn't liked since he was introduced since we learned about him in a comic series that went from average to bad depending on the issue. I thought he had potential and could be a good addition for the Alliance. I was happy with his response to the Undercity situation after Wrathgate. I was happy when he let a grieving father collect his son in ICC. There was something there. Now if only he would get rid of that elf that he fought with.

In Cata, we saw Westfall with a lot of transients and homeless about. I forgot if it was Varian approved or Varian just ignored the problem, but I enjoyed this aspect as well. There were not a lot of Varian moments however. Cata was a Horde-focused expansion, far as I'm considered. They got the better storyline, their leaders had more screentime, etc. Alliance wanted cool gray and grey storylines, too. They wanted their leaders to get some screentime. They got Mists. Perhaps it would be better if we never asked.

I know about Wolfheart. I hate it, but I know about it. Varian drinks from the same water that the worgen drank from in order to control his rage, and he drank from it... before playable Cata, far as I know? Since Greymane was in Darnassus and the Worgen were not official members of the Alliance? Wolfheart did absolutely nothing for the Cata storyline since we still had our aggressive king. Mists decided that the time to mention Wolfheart's Varian change was NOW! A complete and sudden 180 for Varian. Good guy king now!

What do I mean by good guy king? Simple: He's more noblebright than Cristovao di Silvio. You want to know what he's going to do in 5.4? If you listened to Wrathion's dialogue and read some tweets and interviews from Blizzard, Varian Wrynn is going to approve of a new Horde Warchief. Let me make myself more clear:

In 5.4, after the Alliance manages to take the city of Orgrimmar, and not without causalities, mind you, Varian Wrynn decided that the lives his men sacrificed were not important and allowed another Warchief to step up and handed Orgrimmar back to the enemy.

Now, Blizzard did a lot of dumb things with Varian in Mists. This? This is the worst. All the character and potential Blizzard had for Varian? Ruined. Washed away. We are stuck with a man that Blizzard is trying to shove down our throat by making him Anduin Wrynn +30 years. By making the other Alliance leaders look terrible in comparison. By taking all that aggression and hunger for war, and decided that he needed to be Jaina Proudmoore, but just a teeny bit more willing to fight a war. Which brings me to another point, actually.

Jaina and Tyrande
Spoiler:
You ask the typical Warcraft fan, they might you about their favorite Warcraft lore character. Might be Thrall, or Danath, or Malfurion, or Grom (for some reason). Jaina and Tyrande can also be popular answers, depending on if they think Jaina's strive for peace or Tyrande's warrior women is more appealing. Both reasonable answers. I have no doubts Blizzard treated both of them well.

Oh wait, they did. Jaina is no longer much for peace. She and Varian? They decided to switch personalities for an expansion. Where Varian is now fighting for justice and peace, Jaina sees no problem with attempting to kill off orcs or any member of the Horde. Tides of War had her wanting to use water elementals on the city of Orgrimmar and drown everyone until she was stopped by Thrall and her future dragon boyfriend. There was also the whole "just a side effect of the manabomb's crap" explanation, but then we get to Dalaran. Elves might have helped Garrosh? Time to kill -everything-. Everything! Oh oh, best thing about Jaina?

When Varian chooses a new Horde Warchief, she's the one that has a problem with it. Jaina, the former champion of peace, has a problem with the war's end.

Tyrande? That can be summed up quite simply:

In Patch 5.1 Varian Wrynn, probably the youngest of the Alliance leaders (depending on when Moira was born), teaches her what patience means.

3 AM? Too tired to rant more. I'll rant another day. Mists is terrible and I got no hope for 5.4 to alleviate my fears.
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#18
Hey, look on the bright side.

We're fighting alongside trolls for a change, instead of having them be the main enemy of another dungeon!
Quote:[8:53AM] Cassius: Xigo is the best guy ever. he doesn't afraid of anything.
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#19
Meh, it's Arthas all over.

>Get some guy corrupted
>The whole world wants him dead
>Queue up with 24 others and go kill him

Lorewise.. I won't even bother discussing it. Blizzard lore became very stupid after WotLK. Or maybe that's just me...
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#20
(08-23-2013, 11:54 PM)Sorum Wrote: Meh, it's Arthas all over.

No no no, it's not like Arthas at all, since there's no corruption going on! It's an orc turning evil and messing with powers beyond his comprehension, and leading his people to doom through dark and twisted magics. That's completely original and has never happened be--OH. WAIT.

Seriously, this is old hat. And the orcs already learned this lesson twice, in particular. Why are we doing this again?
Have you hugged an orc today?
- I am not tech support. Please do not contact me regarding technical issues. -
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#21
The letter G is evil in Warcraft.

SarGeras
Grom
Garrosh
Guldan
MaGatha Grimtotem
Genn Greymane (Well, up until they decided he was really a fantastic ol' chap in Cataclysm)

Anyone with the letter G in his/her name has a 90% chance of being evil/making 'evil' decisions.
Quote:[8:53AM] Cassius: Xigo is the best guy ever. he doesn't afraid of anything.
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#22
I see your G-theory and raise you:

Arthas
Neltharion
Onyxia
Ner'zhul
Kil'jaeden
Illidan
Archimonde
Azshara
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#23
(08-24-2013, 12:22 AM)Grakor456 Wrote:
(08-23-2013, 11:54 PM)Sorum Wrote: Meh, it's Arthas all over.

No no no, it's not like Arthas at all, since there's no corruption going on! It's an orc turning evil and messing with powers beyond his comprehension, and leading his people to doom through dark and twisted magics. That's completely original and has never happened be--OH. WAIT.

Seriously, this is old hat. And the orcs already learned this lesson twice, in particular. Why are we doing this again?

Erm.. my mistake with the wording there. I more meant it as "Turn some 'good guy' evil, then have him hated and killed."
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#24
I uh.

I like the lore changes and the storylines currently? *Braces for impact*
[Image: desc_head_freemasons.jpg]

△Move along.△


△△
△△△
△△△△

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#25
I actually like Mists overall. I was scared it was going be nothing more than hurr durr pandurrs, but it was a pleasant surprise. Now, I do agree there are a handful of, uh, issues brought up. Tyranda not knowing how to chill out for twenty minutes, all orc quest givers in Mists are apparently Kor'Kron (which if you look at it, they are all of the Loyalists for one reason. Their organization is loyal, not to the Horde, but to it's Warchief. If Thrall was doing this, they would follow him without question.) Diverged... Uh. Yeah, so a lot of crap is brought up.

Garrosh wasn't also explicitly after -JUST- Kalimdor either. Yes, he did focus his soldiers there, but let's not forget that big invasion fleet that landed in Silverpine. And as for Pandaria? If you got wind of a new continent where the other faction got wind of it too... would you just let them have it? It's literally free resources, or so it would seem at first. Abundant new resources, possible Allies to strike deals with or just even force into the army. Whichever works, and clearly both tactics worked for Garrosh.

I do agree that it's shitty development for Garrosh to go through this line of writing:

BC- "WUGHH ALLIANCE KILLED MY DAD. I'M SO ANGRY AT EVERYTHING, BUT I DON'T WANNA DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. GAWL." Angsty Teen
WotLK - "GOD, SAURFANG. STOP GIVING ME LIFE LESSONS. I'LL CRUSH THE ALLIANCE IF I WANT TO. MAYBE I'LL LISTEN TO YOU FOR... UH... TACTICAL ADVICE." Tween with a semi-blocked mind
Cata - "YEAH. WARCHIEF BABY. YOU GET A HORDE INVASION. AND YOU. AND YOU! AND- Wow. Sylvanas, stop that. If you plague there I can't conquer it. Wow, General, stop killing the babies. If they don't grow up we wont have potential slaves or enemies to fight. Geez, it's like everyone is stupid but me.
Mists - "UGH. GENERAL. I SWEAR, YOU LET THEM GET TO THIS NEWFANGLED LAND ALREADY? GET OVER THERE. I AM SO MAD I MIGHT BUST A NUT OVER THIS. - PANDA'S? BETTER FIGHT FOR THE HORDE. - ALL THIS NEWFANGLED TITAN SHIT. (Disregarding Uldum... Ulduar... and whatever else is around already) BETTER TAKE IT FOR MY OWN GO- AW. JAINA. STOP IMPRISONING MY ELVES. UGH. RAAAGE. I AM SO MAD AT EVERYTHING AGAIN. AT LEAST I HAVE MY OWN EMPIRE TO DESTROY THINGS NOW TO VENT MY PENT UP SADNESS. DADDY. COME BACK."


This, I think, accurately fits Garrosh. The whole way through.
Spoiler:
[Image: tumblr_lmqigc3vBC1qkzdnvo1_500.jpg]
Do you have what it takes to join the Fighting Blues?
Do you have what it takes to defend your homeland?
Will you stand up in defense of the innocent? The weak?
Will you stand up in defense of Justice and the Law?

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVE3uy8TjirssygDEKMi2...Ia13_WYQpw]



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#26
(08-23-2013, 03:11 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: More "orcs are evil, trolls and tauren are good" BS. More Garrosh twirling his mustache when he could have been so much more.

It's a poorly-constructed trailer for a very poorly-constructed expansion (lore-wise, at least.) Nothing to see here that I wasn't expecting and already loathing.

Okay, so I know I'm gonna be crossing a few hundred bridges before they're even built, but I need to ask this now.

With all of this braindead, IQ of negative infinity lore going on... what's gonna be CoTH's position on all of this? I remember that a lot of us were averse to using server lore, but from what's going on, with Orgrimmar becoming Garrosh's Super Villain Clubhouse (No Good Guys Allowed), Varian schooling Tyrande on patience, Trolls and Tauren elevating themselves to the moral level of Jesus, what are we gonna do, as a community?

A lot of us don't seem to like this crappy Blizzard lore that's being shoved down retail's throats, although (and I say this with an extremely elitist tone (although I had to deal with retail for 4 years (which still doesn't give me the ability to do this (but who really cares anyways, lol ) ) ) ) most of the retailers are probably RPing soap opera drama instead of discussing that their faction's capital has become Pee Wee's Playhouse.

So, what's gonna happen? Accept Blizzard lore, maybe breaking apart but creating new opportunities? Or create our own server lore at that point, which, from what I've seen, many of us don't want to do?

(08-24-2013, 12:29 AM)Reigen Wrote: I see your G-theory and raise you:

Arthas
Neltharion
Onyxia
Ner'zhul
Kil'jaeden
Illidan
Archimonde
Azshara

Kil'gaeden

Also, I move that the theory be renamed to the G-String Theory.
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#27
Personally, after reading one person's insight into both Varian and Garrosh, I'm actually not at all suprised at the way either of them are acting. Not, mind, that I agree with 100% of what is written, but it does give enough insight and perspective to make me, at least, pause for a second.

This article is for Garrosh.

This one's for Varian.

They are meant to be read in that order. Food for thought :3

Also:

Grakor456 Wrote:It's an orc turning evil and messing with powers beyond his comprehension, and leading his people to doom through dark and twisted magics. That's completely original and has never happened be--OH. WAIT.

Seriously, this is old hat. And the orcs already learned this lesson twice, in particular. Why are we doing this again?

<insert meaningless words of "wisdom" about history repeating itself here>

Seriously, that's about the only reason I can think of. This crapping on orcs makes me wanna make one just against Blizzard's grain and actually stick with what their lore should be, and make an honourable, proud orc with actual values.

And I agree with @Nymus: What're we gonna do about the lore?
Feedback

[Image: ad300x100.png]
Lendri made me do it! Her signature sucked me in!

Spoiler:
[Image: 3801bacbd658b72b4b2b54b893f5ce535d54636d...264c_1.jpg]
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#28
(08-24-2013, 06:17 AM)Nymus Wrote: So, what's gonna happen? Accept Blizzard lore, maybe breaking apart but creating new opportunities? Or create our own server lore at that point, which, from what I've seen, many of us don't want to do?

I think before we talk about this too much, we need to see how MoP ends. Really, the conclusion of MoP, especially who becomes Warchief and how Varian/Jaina interact regarding this, will be fairly important in being able to look at MoP as a whole and figure out what exactly can be done about it.

The whole "orcs are evil" thing is a framing issue. That's something we can do something about by creating more events, guilds, and the like that depict orcs with actual brains. That by itself is fixable with minimal need for changing much of the lore.

The plot holes, "why is this happening to orcs again?" question, and the butchering of lore figures? That's, unfortunately, not something we can do much about without completely rewriting Mists and the ending to Cataclysm. That's really not hyperbole. While the actual panda stuff and all was decent, there is not a single plot point in the overall metaplot that is at all salvageable. It really is that aggressively terrible. If we want to really fix the lore, it would involve going full on for custom lore. So it's really an "all or nothing" kind of decision.

And that's not going to be taken lightly. It would involve a complete turn-around from CotH's mission statement for the past several years. (And hey, I'd get to look like a hypocrite, that's always a plus.)

On the other hand, Blizzard is making the best argument for embracing custom lore that I've ever seen.

As I said, this conversation going on in more depth will probably have to wait until we see the ending to Mists. Currently, it seems like Thrall is the most likely candidate for the next warchief...which I don't like, but at least would be better than pretty much everyone else that's a possibility right now. On the other hand, they could still make a really stupid decision with this and I wouldn't put it past them. We'll see.
Have you hugged an orc today?
- I am not tech support. Please do not contact me regarding technical issues. -
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#29
Is it really 'butchering'? Or are the flaws of these characters finally coming into the light.

-Tyrande was never patient.
-Garrosh was never a 'New Horde' guy.
-Thrall can make bad judgement calls.
So on, so forth.

The only lore character that's explicitly evil is Sylvannas. Garrosh is just taking everything he knows to an extreme (which is a problem of his upbringing/being thrust into command of the entire Horde).

I don't think Blizzard's doing that bad with their lore figures. I think they're just deviating from what we want, and that's absolutely fantastic.
Quote:[8:53AM] Cassius: Xigo is the best guy ever. he doesn't afraid of anything.
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#30
(08-24-2013, 10:16 AM)Xigo Wrote: Is it really 'butchering'? Or are the flaws of these characters finally coming into the light.

-Tyrande was never patient.
-Garrosh was never a 'New Horde' guy.
-Thrall can make bad judgement calls.
So on, so forth.

The only lore character that's explicitly evil is Sylvannas. Garrosh is just taking everything he knows to an extreme (which is a problem of his upbringing/being thrust into command of the entire Horde).

I don't think Blizzard's doing that bad with their lore figures. I think they're just deviating from what we want, and that's absolutely fantastic.

Yes, it really is butchering. It's not about showing flaws of the characters at all.

Regardless of whether Tyrande was ever patient or not, having her learn that lesson from Varian of all people (who I remind you rushed into war with the Horde in Wrath) is ridiculous at best, out-right stupid at worst. The point of the scene isn't even to teach Tyrande a lesson, it's to make Varian look better. The supposed Trials of the High King aren't even trials for him, because he already knows all of the lessons and is having no difficulty doing anything. Blizzard just really, really wants us to love the guy now because he's so perfect, to create a contrast to Garrosh who's terrible.

If you can look at that trailer, not to mention the scene with the divine bell before, and -not- see Garrosh as entirely evil, I have absolutely no idea what to say to you. Not to mention it's an abortion of a character arc that began for him and Cata. He heel-turned for no reason. If you want to make him a bad guy, fine, but why did you bother trying to redeem him at all in Cata then?

Thrall making a bad judgment call is fine. That's not the problem with Thrall. In fact, they need to do more of that with him and make him less green Jesus. But regardless of whether he made a mistake, the blame will not rest on him: it'll rest on Garrosh. Thrall's going to get off scot-free on this. Most likely he's going to end up Warchief again regardless and we're supposed to be happy about this, because according to Blizz everyone loves Thrall. Nevermind it makes the entire orcish race look completely dependent on him. And he gets married to a woman with no personality solely to give him a son. That's great.

Jaina and Varian switched personalities, as Mathias has pointed out. Why is Jaina, who spent so much time learning from Thrall and realizing that orcs a good people too, flipping out about wanting to destroy Orgrimmar and then supposedly chastising Varian at the end of MoP for not executing them? Why is Varian the one that decides it's good to just let them go? Again, because Varian is supposed to be perfect now. Or they're trying to be clever and show a reversal of the Undercity scene back in Wrath. It's not clever.

I could keep going, but I've made too many walls of text in this thread as-is. They're doing a terrible job.
Have you hugged an orc today?
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