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The Blood Mage Debacle
#1
(05-18-2013, 05:02 PM)flammos200 Wrote: Better(In my opinion, at least) solution to Blood Mages:

Water down their power level, rather than removing abilities:
-Verdant Spheres = Just Chaos Bolt level of power.
-Phoenixes = The exact same 'power level' and size as a Water Elemental/Voidwalker. Except instead of being made of water/Shadow, they're made of fire and shaped like a bird.
-Banish = We already got that.
-Drain Life/Mana = Already got that too.
-Flamestrike = Need I say anything?

By following the above, Blood Mages can be just an influential Magister, and don't have to cut out the abilities that give the variant its flavor, while maintaining the exact same power level as any other mage or warlock.

And it works well with the Variant system, since it's just a reinterpretation of existing class abilities.

I suggested the same thing about a year back(07-01-2012). Didn't get an answer then. The above is all that really matters. What's below is the suggestion of a year ago, gently dropped in favor of the aforementioned.

Spoiler:
flammos200 Wrote:[...]
I'm writing to you to discuss a particular spell for a particular class. Namely, Summon Phoenix, for Blood Magi.

To my understanding, summoning a phoenix was nixed somewhere along the way, but I would very much enjoy it if it were made possible once more. I believe that the Free-form system allows for it, and these are the arguments I make:

The Blood Mage, should they be of the Mage class, can simply swap Summon Water Elemental(which entails summoning and controling an elemental from the elemental plane of Water), with summoning a phoenix, which is a fire elemental, from the elemental plane of fire. Just like a Water Elemental, it can be a permanent pet(with the appropriate glyph) or a temporary summon. The Phoenix and Water Elemental have effectively the same characteristics, both being made almost entirely out of their element, and being capable of ranged attacks.

Now, should the Blood Mage be of the Warlock class, they already have the usual demon summons. It would be very easy for a player to forgo those in favor of a Phoenix.

Summoning sentient elementals happens already in the case of Magi, and it's pretty much the same(power-wise) as a Shaman's elemental-summoning totems. I believe that swapping a water elemental(traditional mage) with a fire one, namely a phoenix(In the case of a Blood Mage) could be done. Phoenixes would obviously be equal in all aspects with the summon they replace.

We've already treated classes <Like X but Y>, such as Lightslayers using Shadow to fuel their Roguish powers, or Warriors using the Arcane/Divine to add that little extra oomph to their blows(I recall the discussion in the OOC area when Grak mentioned a certain Champion of the Light NPC to that effect), and so forth, even to extremes like Fel-sworn Rogues using Fel, or Infiltrators having a measure of psionic ability(to Sap/Blind only, of course), so I see no reason why a Blood Mage couldn't swap the aesthetics of a Water Elemental with those of a Phoenix any more than I see reason to treat Demon Hunters as anything but effectively Melee Warlocks.

But in the case in which dealing with a sentient elemental(like the Water one a Mage summons, or those summoned by Shaman) is too much, would shaping a bird out of arcane fire be all right? It'd only be a construct. We know fire can be shaped into a lot of ways - heck, even into complex things as a Dragon's head in the case of the Dragonfire spell that Magi can use - so I'm sure shaping it into the vague shape of a bird would be all right, no?

Again, I'm thinking of it only being used by Blood Mages, who(due to political influence) are Special Profiles, and thus under the scrutiny of the GM team, and not us Forum Helpers. It's more or less the symbol of being a Blood Mage, just like visions of the future are for Far Seers, for instance.

[...]
Thank you kindly for your time.
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#2
Kael'thas is one of two NPCs [The other being this guy, who you kill.] who are able to summon one. In lore, that makes him one of three [The third being this guy, and considering he was a guardian, that doesn't speak for how easy the task is.] Only three phoenixes have appeared in the game thus far, implying that they are a very rare creature and not something just anyone can summon.

Quote:Powerful blood mages, like Kael'thas, can summon phoenixes.

This also implies, to me, that you have to be on his level in order to be able to summon this creature. Sort of like how we can't summon tidal waves large enough to drown an entire city, some things are just too powerful for PCs to be able to use. Not to mention that this seems to be more appropriate for a warlock class instead of a mage class.

I can somewhat see the Verdant Spheres. You get a glyph for them in MoP for warlocks anyway. See below:

Spoiler:
[Image: soulShards.jpg]
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#3
Right. So, Blood Mages are just a bundle of fun to talk about.

To preface this ahead of time: this is all just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

The main issue here is the political clout. Funnily enough, the WoWpedia page for Blood Mages doesn't mention any particular political or social clout for Blood Mages. So, presuming this isn't an issue and isn't being asked for, I don't think the concept in and of itself is particularly crazy. If we're letting folks roll Blademasters, this isn't all that different.

Phoenixes are a tricky matter, since the games are a bit inconsistent with them. Any high level Blood Mage could summon one in WC3, but that doesn't really say much considering any high level Paladin could mass resurrect in WC3. Now, *from a balance perspective,* since most BMs would be interpreted as Warlock variants anyway, summoning something doesn't strike me as that odd. I'd say it'd be like summoning a Doomguard, hard to control, can only do so for brief periods, but it can do some damage while it's out until it implodes in on itself.

If we were to allow it, I think that is how I would choose to interpret it. The hardest part, honestly, is the lack of a way to properly represent the darn thing in RP.
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#4
Reigen Wrote:Kael'thas is one of two NPCs [The other being this guy, who you kill.] who are able to summon one. In lore, that makes him one of three [The third being this guy, and considering he was a guardian, that doesn't speak for how easy the task is.] Only three phoenixes have appeared in the game thus far, implying that they are a very rare creature and not something just anyone can summon.

Quote:Powerful blood mages, like Kael'thas, can summon phoenixes.

This also implies, to me, that you have to be on his level in order to be able to summon this creature. Sort of like how we can't summon tilde waves large enough to drown an entire city, some things are just too powerful for PCs to be able to use. Not to mention that this seems to be more appropriate for a warlock class instead of a mage class.

Except, the same can be said for the MoP demon summons. -Shivarra-. Really?! Wrathguards, I can see. Voidlords, Abyssals, Terrorguards, etc. are generally in-lore far too powerful for any one person to control, not to mention that Shivarra generally -destroy- mortal adventurers with ease. I recall one of the events on CoTH that barely wanted to bring down -one-, with like, thirty people. Knock DM-ed it.

Also, all of the Warcraft 3 Blood Mages seemed to have Phoenix access. Besides, look at what they -do-. They just shoot fire. Just like a Water Elemental shoots water/ice. You could pull it off even better with a Warlock, since they're already a specialized pet class - that point I concede entirely.

Either way, if you want it to be low-power, then just have it be as low-power as a normal Warlock demon or Mage elemental. Not all Phoenixes are alike, as exemplified by A'lar who is -ridiculously- powerful. I doubt hatchlings or juveniles are all that mighty. So, a low-powered Phoenix'd be on equal terms with the other pets.

And yeah, you're right, MoP does give us the Verdant Spheres, except their verdance is more of a purple, but hey. /shrug. I don't make spell graphics.

Grakor456 Wrote:Right. So, Blood Mages are just a bundle of fun to talk about.

To preface this ahead of time: this is all just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

The main issue here is the political clout. Funnily enough, the WoWpedia page for Blood Mages doesn't mention any particular political or social clout for Blood Mages. So, presuming this isn't an issue and isn't being asked for, I don't think the concept in and of itself is particularly crazy. If we're letting folks roll Blademasters, this isn't all that different.

Phoenixes are a tricky matter, since the games are a bit inconsistent with them. Any high level Blood Mage could summon one in WC3, but that doesn't really say much considering any high level Paladin could mass resurrect in WC3. Now, *from a balance perspective,* since most BMs would be interpreted as Warlock variants anyway, summoning something doesn't strike me as that odd. I'd say it'd be like summoning a Doomguard, hard to control, can only do so for brief periods, but it can do some damage while it's out until it implodes in on itself.

If we were to allow it, I think that is how I would choose to interpret it. The hardest part, honestly, is the lack of a way to properly represent the darn thing in RP.

I'd think it to be more like a Fel-guard, really, but I like your idea. A more specialized ability, as it were - and judging from Fel-guard voice files, they don't seem very... tame. So, you'd have to basically 'specialize' right to get Phoenixes, in an IC perspective, if we're to take 'specs' as IC.

As for what to represent it as... Hrm...

Well, Imps toss around fires and immolation shields. Succubi have wings. Voidwalkers are already made of an element. And so forth. You can just emote it being a Phoenix.
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#5
(05-18-2013, 06:02 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: If we were to allow it, I think that is how I would choose to interpret it. The hardest part, honestly, is the lack of a way to properly represent the darn thing in RP.

Why not simply treat it like any other summoned pet? A Phoenix need not be especially powerful, if we treat it like any other elemental manifestation. We could sidestep it being a temporary summon that way as well - with the Variant system, balance really doesn't have to be an issue.

As for how to RP it, like a standard summoned minion, I suspect. There would likely be some differences on account of it not being demonic in origin - perhaps it would be more bestial and noble in nature than the typical brute-force pets.
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#6
(05-18-2013, 06:12 PM)hiddengecko Wrote: Why not simply treat it like any other summoned pet? A Phoenix need not be especially powerful, if we treat it like any other elemental manifestation. We could sidestep it being a temporary summon that way as well - with the Variant system, balance really doesn't have to be an issue.

As for how to RP it, like a standard summoned minion, I suspect. There would likely be some differences on account of it not being demonic in origin - perhaps it would be more bestial and noble in nature than the typical brute-force pets.

From a technical standpoint, we could treat the thing as a vanity pet if we *really* wanted to. But honestly, I don't think that does it enough justice. Even in WC3, while the Phoenix wasn't exactly the best unit ever, it was still quite potent, at least as much as the Doomguards within the same game. I think treating it on the level of a Doomguard/Infernal/other-temporary-pet is the best course to keep its relative lore power level in-tact.

If the argument against phoenixes is "But they're absurdly rare and powerful in lore," then the best compromise doesn't strike me as "treat them like a Legion footsoldier," which is what a Felguard is.
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#7
(05-18-2013, 06:18 PM)Grakor456 Wrote:
(05-18-2013, 06:12 PM)hiddengecko Wrote: Why not simply treat it like any other summoned pet? A Phoenix need not be especially powerful, if we treat it like any other elemental manifestation. We could sidestep it being a temporary summon that way as well - with the Variant system, balance really doesn't have to be an issue.

As for how to RP it, like a standard summoned minion, I suspect. There would likely be some differences on account of it not being demonic in origin - perhaps it would be more bestial and noble in nature than the typical brute-force pets.

From a technical standpoint, we could treat the thing as a vanity pet if we *really* wanted to. But honestly, I don't think that does it enough justice. Even in WC3, while the Phoenix wasn't exactly the best unit ever, it was still quite potent, at least as much as the Doomguards within the same game. I think treating it on the level of a Doomguard/Infernal/other-temporary-pet is the best course to keep its relative lore power level in-tact.

If the argument against phoenixes is "But they're absurdly rare and powerful in lore," then the best compromise doesn't strike me as "treat them like a Legion footsoldier," which is what a Felguard is.

Oh my. That just made me realize something... Infernals already have immolation aura! They already burn the things around them. They'd make a nice representation.
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#8
I see your point, but I'm not sure I like the idea of temporary pets. It's harder to treat one like a part of the character than a constant or near-constant pet, and fosters fewer opportunities for RP as well. I don't like seeing something so potentially interesting degraded to little more than a "cooldown" spell.

As it is, besides, even if we were to treat a Phoenix as a temporary pet because of its rarity, what would the point be? The same number of writers could still have a Phoenix. The limited summon duration would serve no purpose, since you can't really alter a character's power outside of a trust-fight anyway.

In short, I'd prefer they have the option of remaining constant. I like it more when a summoned pet can be a character in themselves, rather than being just a tool in a character's arsenal. While that does work for some, I don't think it works for all.
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#9
(As an aside about the spheres, look to the right half of the image Reigen posted. The glyph actually does make them appear to be verdant spheres of the blood mage variety.)

On that note, I feel that we kinda improperly categorized Blood Mage back when we used it in prestiges; it is certainly more of a warlock-y deal; heck, all of its abilities mesh -perfectly- with the warlock skillset: Banish, they have to the letter. Siphon Mana is easily adaptable. Flamestrike is -very- easily written into the form of destruction warlock magic.

Personally I'd be all for just saying that you could rp a Blood Mage without the phoenix ability. There's no masking that the ultimate abilities of the hero classes in WC3 were in many cases overpowered; as Grakor mentioned, paladins could raise a small brigade of soldiers from the dead, right on the spot.

[If people really want to hash out a way to do the phoenix, I don't suppose I would be completely against it. However, I would argue that you could roleplay a blood mage without that ability fairly well; just as people can roleplay a paladin without the need to mass resurrect.]


EDIT: Lemme just point this out-- I don't think Phoenixes have ever been characterized. They -are- just tools, for all we've seen of them. Raging fiery creatures which are summoned to wreak havoc. They aren't pets in the hunter sense where an intimate bond is formed, or at least as much as I've seen.
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#10
The phoenix is supposed to be temporary, IC that's what it did in WC3. It is summoned from the plane of fire (or whatever), burns EVERYTHING, then extinguishes into an egg and is reborn after X time. I dunno if there is a phoenix vaanity pet, though... but it'd be fun to have one if there is.


Furthermore, I am all for Blood Maages not being specials. They're just regular mages who took up fire magic and powered it with PURE HATE AND ANGER. IC, they're the middle ground between warlocks and mages.

Plus I have a blood mage charaacter and I don't wanna have to profile him to RP him because I'm still figuring out his charaacter >:V


On the subject of ultimates, Mountain Kings get to be RPed with Avatar, Shaman have Earthquake, Death and Decay exists with DKs, Starfall can be RPed for PotMs, Demonform exists in game for Warlocks and can be RPed through DHs, Tranqulity exists...

Almost every ultimate can be RPed or used in game in some shape or form already.
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#11
(05-18-2013, 06:34 PM)CappnRob Wrote: I dunno if there is a phoenix vaanity pet, though... but it'd be fun to have one if there is.

There is!

[Image: PhoenixHatchling.jpg]
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#12
(05-18-2013, 06:25 PM)hiddengecko Wrote: I see your point, but I'm not sure I like the idea of temporary pets. It's harder to treat one like a part of the character than a constant or near-constant pet, and fosters fewer opportunities for RP as well. I don't like seeing something so potentially interesting degraded to little more than a "cooldown" spell.

As it is, besides, even if we were to treat a Phoenix as a temporary pet because of its rarity, what would the point be? The same number of writers could still have a Phoenix. The limited summon duration would serve no purpose, since you can't really alter a character's power outside of a trust-fight anyway.

In short, I'd prefer they have the option of remaining constant. I like it more when a summoned pet can be a character in themselves, rather than being just a tool in a character's arsenal. While that does work for some, I don't think it works for all.

This strikes me as a matter of opinion. I think temporary pets can still have great RP potential depending on how you spin the relationship and how things work. Doomguards certainly have some great RP potential when summoned by a Warlock, struggling to keep control of him as he rampages about.

But really, such is the issue when you have something so powerful as a potential minion. Yeah, it's not really a "balance" issue so to speak since it wouldn't give you roll benefits, and neither would a Doomguard. However, I do think it is more appropriate from a lore-friendliness perspective. Treating them as simple minions strikes me as doing a disservice and is just as easily capable of ruining the entire appeal, depending on why you're looking for them. For more permanent pets that you want to treat as more consistent characters, I would think that demons or elementals would be better suited. Summoning a fire elemental would probably be more easily passed.

(That said, there IS a phoenix hatchling vanity pet, I believe. This conversation has got me with the amusing concept of a hatchling that the Blood Mage spontaneously makes grow into a gigantic inferno for short periods when it's needed for combat. Would that ever be passed? I kinda doubt it, but I'm chuckling at the imagery.)
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#13
(05-18-2013, 06:40 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: (That said, there IS a phoenix hatchling vanity pet, I believe. This conversation has got me with the amusing concept of a hatchling that the Blood Mage spontaneously makes grow into a gigantic inferno for short periods when it's needed for combat. Would that ever be passed? I kinda doubt it, but I'm chuckling at the imagery.)

I love this idea. So much.

"GROW, PHOENIX, GROW!"
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#14
(05-18-2013, 06:49 PM)Rigley Wrote: "GROW, PHOENIX, GROW!"

MAGIC WAND, MAKE MY PHOENIX GROOOOOOOOOOW!
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#15
(05-18-2013, 06:34 PM)CappnRob Wrote: Demonform exists in game for Warlocks and can be RPed through DHs

Not true. DHs aren't allowed demon form on CotH. Under the old prestige system they had it, but under current rules they cannot. And I'm not too sure about the avatar ability (my own Mountain King just uses the regular stoneform).
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