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The Blood Mage Debacle
#31
This is a very interesting conversation/ debate. One that if a side is chosen could lead to other topics being talked about in the realm of exotic pets and companions. Hmmm the mind wanders eh? ;) It's a slippery slope ladies and gents.
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#32
Quote: Besides, a good, plausible solution has been found, that those involved generally seem to agree with.

Everyone on the server is involved if they read the thread, and everyone's opinion should be heard. It doesn't just involve those who play the blood mages, either.



I have to throw my voice in favor of fun nazi Javert this time around. I was actually on board with the “time-limited but very powerful summon,” similar to how we’ve been using the other “ultimate” abilities (Doomguard, Metamorphosis, Army of the Dead, etc). I really don’t, however, like the idea of having a tiny phoenix around that you can just poof up instantly to full battle power and then shrink it again to sit on your shoulder when you’re done.

The passage c0r linked cites phoenixes as great firebirds that do nothing but hunt, die and poof back up to full size. We’ve never, to my knowledge, seen a phoenix be reborn in anything but full size, from all the ingame appearances they’ve made.

To be perfectly frank, when I was thinking of the stuff a blood mage could do IC when this came up, the thought of having a phoenix wasn’t even on my mind. I didn't think it was necessary to actually RP the class, and...it shouldn't be, really. I thought allowing the name, prestige, and verdant spheres (which were the coolest part, in my opinion) was enough. But it came up, and hey, why not? Have a phoenix summon. It's a lore-supported ability, if extremely powerful. (Why don't demon hunters have metamorphosis, again? I want it back now. ) A cute baby phoenix, however...isn't.

While I do (believe it or not) support bending lore/the rules sometimes in the name of more enjoyable RP, this current iteration of the phoenix doesn’t sit well with me. What came immediately to mind, as Mimloopen mentioned, is anime/pokemon, and I don't feel it is a good incarnation of the ability. If you want a phoenix, then have a temporary summon for combat and let it go when it's done, as we've always seen it done. The phoenix shouldn't be a cute little bird that floats around for RP, in my opinion. It's a creature that burns anything that gets too close to it, without even trying. I strongly believe it should only be available for combat situations.

I don't usually post in debate threads, but I feel strongly enough about this that I am here. So, there it is.
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#33
I...

Can't earnestly disagree with mim or JV here. Back to neutrality I go.

(though I will state-- I have always found it to be the worst kind of self limitation to have a character based solely on abililities. And summon Phoenix would be a particularly egrarious example of an ability that's uneccessary for a concept to be viable.

Not bad to have, not even arguing that at the moment, but just not neccessary to play the class.)
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#34
Phoenixes are kind of... The physical manifestation of the metaphoric rise, fall, and rebirth of the elves. It isn't necessary, but the reason that a Phoenix is used instead of a fire elemental or a Demon is because they -are- important to the elves, even if it is just symbolic. It would be kind of like the President not swearing in on the bible during his inauguration, or the queen knighting someone in an alley with a bed post instead of a sword. There are certain circumstances of promp and frill that are more ceremonial and metaphoric than a necessity, but they -are- there for a reason...
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#35
If it was up to me, I'd allow phoenixes for any Variant class, even custom ones, that consistently explain the summon. It is ultimately just a powerful elemental, stretching suspension of disbelief a lot less than may other "WoW-mainstream" things. I for one think they're amazing.

That being said, I find it a bit of a non-issue.

For those that like big burning fire-birds, just launch bird-shaped Pyroblasts or such.

For those that want to RP relationship dynamics with an elemental at their side - solutions abound for that as well.
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#36
Just making a note here that nothing new's been decided as far as Blood Mages are concerned (and Phoenixes, for that matter). Pervious rulings still stand, discussions in here aside. Discussions will continue, but there's no guarantee for any changes being made to the established policies in regards to either.

Thought it was best to make a statement about it.

Carry on~.
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#37
(05-19-2013, 08:04 AM)Beltharean Wrote: Phoenixes are kind of... The physical manifestation of the metaphoric rise, fall, and rebirth of the elves. It isn't necessary, but the reason that a Phoenix is used instead of a fire elemental or a Demon is because they -are- important to the elves, even if it is just symbolic. It would be kind of like the President not swearing in on the bible during his inauguration, or the queen knighting someone in an alley with a bed post instead of a sword. There are certain circumstances of promp and frill that are more ceremonial and metaphoric than a necessity, but they -are- there for a reason...

Right, no, I get that. At the same time every Blood Mage isn't equivalent to the president or the queen. In fact that would really only apply to Kael, who -was- the king by all rights, so... this sorta doesn't pan out when we're talking about player characters.

...Fuirther, phoenixes in their own right are also a bit -more- than pomp and frills, heh. And I wouldn't say they're ceremonial -at all-, or else you'd expect to have seen more than just Kael's in Blood Elf society. They are symbolic of the elves, but the phoenix itself is a tool of war. As well, just because something is used as a symbol doesn't even mean its necessarily attainable. It's just... symbolic. True, in WoW more often than not those symbols are mirrored in some way, but up until Cata we didn't have an actual lion lounging around in Stormwind, and that's been their symbolic image even longer than the elves and the phoenix.

In short I don't see how symbolic importance necessarily means that it should be an available thing.

(I still remain undecided on my own end, but I do admit that I don't really see why the phoenix is a necessity. And to clear it up, I don't think in any iteration of this we would be giving out the Ashes of Al'ar mount, as a phoenix -mount- would be an even further debacle to start talking about.)
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#38
I think we're getting a little nitpicky here if we're upset at using vanity pets and using a gimmick item to make them GROOOOW to represent going into combat as a RP spell.

I mean, does it really matter?
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#39
I agree with some points raised and disagree with others. Nevertheless, I'm still in favour.

Phoenixes are not necessary, no. A character whose sole existence revolves around their abilities would be pretty flat even if those abilities were not especially flamboyant. The hallmark of a well-written character is one with leagues of depth regardless of its race, gender, creed, or combative abilities. The best ones draw from their core aspects and are enhanced by them. And yeah, I think a phoenix would enhance the image of Blood Mage, personally.

Magically empowering a phoenix chick so that it becomes an adult is not as far-fetched as it sounds, either. Elementals do seem to get bigger as the energy that composes them increases. I can't find any lore on that, but there are 'Lesser' and 'Greater' elementals, and while the former are often quite small, the latter are much bigger. Also, Warlocks can restore their demons' life force at the expense of their own ( http://www.wowhead.com/spell=755/health-funnel ), so why not let Blood Mages funnel fire into a phoenix hatchling to spur its growth? Far from being overly 'anime', it actually makes a lot of sense in the setting.

There are a lot of creative weaknesses you could apply to phoenixes, too. Elementals are typically found in regions resembling their elements, so they'd probably burn out a lot quicker in windy/wet/cold climes. Frost, water, and air will really give them a hard time. The image of a phoenix chick shivering in Northrend is too cute.
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#40
I'm throwing my uninvited two cents into the ring on this matter because, quite frankly, I don't quite understand why everyone is so hung-up on the power level of the Phoenix as an element of the character. That they're involved with Blood Mages at all seems more iconic to me than anything else, and the biggest arguments I've seen are that it's too "anime-esque" or some such, or that a phoenix (or all phoenixes, apparently?) would be too difficult to control.

And let me be clear, I firmly believe that Blood Mages should have access to Phoenixes in some form. It's too iconic to leave out, right up with Verdant Spheres and being Blood Elves in the first place!

The control issue seems like we've found a workaround. Rare as they are (If we're taking in-game appearances as their sole factor, which I'm not -entirely- okay with but that's a discussion for another time.) I still don't see why a younger one (in the grand scheme) couldn't be perfectly feasible. They're rare, but then so are Blademasters, Mages (relative to farmers), Draenei, Shamans (Again, relative but still very much important!) Death Knights, and so on. I could keep going, but I won't because I feel I've made my point on rarity being too much of an issue.

The "anime-like" issue is one I take even more firm disagreement with. I'm fairly certain I've already entrenched myself as part of the "high fantasy" crowd here on CotH, and so it shouldn't surprise anyone that I am going to argue that "it's too fantastic for this fantasy setting" isn't an acceptable justification against Phoenixes.

To aspire to the mundane is to aspire to complacency. To seek only to act within the boundaries of reality is a cardinal sin of anyone who claims even association with the fantastic, with any realm of elves and dragons and magic. To say “that is not realistic” should be a compliment! It should be a statement of absolute adoration, of understanding that to seek to align your work solely with the boundaries of the real is to seek little more than the everyday. No great work is done in such a manner. We, as writers, as artists, roleplayers or actors all have the ability to transcend the limitations of the real and work with such a broad scope that limiting ourselves to the possible is so stifling that it should suffocate. Why should we limit ourselves to what exists when we can create so much more than that with a simple sentence, a simple idea or thought or emotion? We have been given a gift, and to limit yourself to the lower reaches of fantasy in the name of realism, to chain up a marvelous muse on a leash in such a way, is tantamount to betraying everything we're capable of.

There is a time for realism, a time for over the top and a time for seeing what cannot be done and agreeing that it should not be done. This is not that time. We live in a world where every day we are told what is impossible, what will happen and when it will happen. Only when these things are proven wrong is any achievement made. To believe something impossible is to give up on any desire to try, and to throw one more dream down the toilet, into the refuse bin or just so far away that it's one more interesting thing the world will never see. Yes, sometimes there is a risk, but it's a far greater risk to us all to never try and thus never have a chance to succeed, robbing the world of something that could be amazing. Sometimes it's fun to do the impossible. Sometimes it's more fun to try it and fail, only to come out with a wondrous story anyway.
As someone wise once said, the important thing is never to be fearless or confident. Most people have more than enough trouble with both. The trick is to fake it, because if you learn to fake it properly, it's the same thing as actually having confidence.
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#41
I don't really feel the big argument has anything to do with things being 'anime-esque', or that the Phoenixes 'aren't realistic'. Magic in general isn't realistic, heh.

Quote:(If we're taking in-game appearances as their sole factor, which I'm not -entirely- okay with but that's a discussion for another time.)

The issue is that in-game is really all we have to work with; even in other mediums phoenixes are rare. There are other blood mages in game which don't display an ability to summon a phoenix; and as has been stated before, the issue with comparing to the WC3 blood mage's abilities to summon phoenixes is problematic due to them being on par with paladins with mass resurrection, archmagi, dreadlords, liches, etc.

...So basically we just don't have any inkling to Phoenixes being available by people who aren't lore-level figures. The only other NPC in Warcraft seen summoning a phoenix aside from Kael is a Tol'vir who is the boss of a dungeon.

I find that to be the 'main' argument, if there is one specific one.
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#42
I'm not entirely decided one way or another (I'm pro-phoenix, dependent on how they are handled). However, I do think there's a problem rightfully pointed out about the desire for having a phoenix familiar.

(05-19-2013, 06:53 AM)JVNemesis Wrote: The phoenix shouldn't be a cute little bird that floats around for RP, in my opinion. It's a creature that burns anything that gets too close to it, without even trying. I strongly believe it should only be available for combat situations.

I don't know if JV meant what I'm going to say when I say this (so sorry if you didn't) but I have a problem with players running around with a little baby phoenix perching on their shoulder. I think it sorta gets away from what the thing is. I may be misinterpreting what phoenixes are, but I equate them with the warlock summon infernal. They are weapons of destruction, hunters, and seem to exist and be used purely to that end. I'm not going to come home and my baby phoenix flies down, happy to see me. It won't follow me around as I prance through the woods, etc.

So my problem stems from the desire to have what amounts to a phoenix pet. And if they are used in more familiar ways and I'm incorrect, that's fine (I don't know the lore that exists on the topic). However, from what I've gleaned that isn't the case.
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#43
The way I see it there's a good bit of a split on just what a Phoenix -is-, heh. In terms of intelligence, ability to interact, and how 'casual' a creature they are.
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#44
I'm of the opinion that they shouldn't really... Tag along with you. I do think it's a good idea to have the minipet with the enlarger for situations where you summon it, but they aren't really your buddies. Granted the only in-game Phoenix we've seen -can- be around for as long as you want it to be, but it's a mount and stupid strong, so I'm not sure if it really counts.
"Every gun..."

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"...Makes its own tune."


~ The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly ~
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#45
Regardless of how this is handled in the end, the mini-pet enlarger item has already been created, which should be useful for more instances outside of this particular case. So, if nothing else, some good came from this.

I think right now the majority wants to see phoenixes available in some fashion, there's just contention on the best way to handle it.
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