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The Disciplinary Process
#16
(03-21-2013, 08:43 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: Indeed. They can also be sent to my or Kretol's CotH emails if all else fails. However, this might slow the process a bit as I don't check my email as much as I should.
As a note, I recently set up an appeals email which will forward to all current GMs and admins, we just need to get it integrated on the wiki and whatnot.
(It being [email protected])


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Try to never just say, "My character isn't interested in that adventure." A lot of people mistake this for good roleplaying, because you are asserting your character's personality. Wrong. Good roleplaying should never bring the game to a screeching halt. One of your jobs as a player is to come up with a reason why your character would be interested in a plot. After all, your personality is entirely in your hands, not the DM's. Come up with a reason why the adventure (or the reward) might appeal to you, no matter how esoteric or roundabout the reasoning. -(Source)
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#17
Sometimes the bans or suspensions may feel random but they're not. Sometimes it's best to let the people in charge handle it. I can say personally a good number of my friends were banned, and were not honest or fudged the truth about why they were banned. So it can seem frustrating, but you got to trust that these issues aren't handled lightly and sometimes your friends can paint a biased story about it.
#18
Vouch ban Grakor, does not check email.
Quote:[8:53AM] Cassius: Xigo is the best guy ever. he doesn't afraid of anything.
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#19
(03-20-2013, 10:58 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: It's important to remember human nature. Anyone who's taken a basic communication or psychology course will know it's human nature to divert blame to others when possible. That's not a judgment against others, I don't pretend to be any different. But, instead of being able to admit one's own faults, it is easier to claim that the GMs are corrupt, that Y GM fabricated reasons to get him banned, that it's all someone else's fault, etc.

Projecting blame on someone else isn't always used as a defense mechanism by everyone, but when it is, it's involving another person in a problem against their will through a false accusation. This is a manifestation of previous anger into a new form, and in the situation of a person blaming a GM after a ban without any significant evidence against the GM, it should really just be considered a 'grand' or 'loud' exit. It's in CotH's rules that a person shouldn't make a grand exit. So everyone who plays here has read that rule and agreed to it, and there shouldn't be any excuse for violating that rule. You and the GMs shouldn't have to feel bad for doing your jobs; it is something that every kind of moderator has to go through.

If somebody truly believes that a GM violated some kind of rule that led to some kind of conflict, whatever that situation may be, the courteous thing to do would be to deal with it quietly and discuss it through private messaging because being loud about it is disrespectful, whether or not that person is guilty of the accusation. It's unnecessary drama.
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#20
(03-21-2013, 11:18 AM)Wuvvums Wrote: Sometimes the bans or suspensions may feel random but they're not. Sometimes it's best to let the people in charge handle it.

Th one good thing I've noticed is that if you yourself are the one being suspended (Or banned), GM's will tell you why. They'll give specifics, and let you know exactly what was the reason. It would be easy for them to simply go "BAM! Your suspended." But they take the time, and they tell you, whether ingame or on the forums. But even if they don't, if you ask, they still tell you why instead of simply telling you to just wait it out. It's not that they want people gone, they just want people to fit in as best as possible, and sometimes these are needed to help with that. I myself have started to change for the better due to the fact they they did tell me.

I think this system works the best with open communication, and luckily, there is.
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#21
I've seen some vague ban notices before. Just sayin'.

My only major frustration that I've encountered with the system is the vagueness and being told by GMs it wasn't my business. I didn't know I could go to Grakor or Kretol about it for clarification.
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[4:16:27 PM] Cristovao di Silvio ( @CappnRob): theres the bar. then theres the bottom of the barrel, then theres you sachi
#22
As someone who's been highly involved and vocalized in the disciplinary process:

Warnings and suspensions are not necessarily a one-way staircase. Very rarely is it, or was, the case that someone would get warned, then temporarily suspended, then fully banned, like a machine automation. Each situation is weighed very heavily and taken into deep consideration if the offense is something that wouldn't warrant an automatic banning. There is conversation and insight as to the topic, as well as differing opinions on each subject. I know I made it my personal goal to try and weigh in on almost every incident that occurs. While someone's personal ideology almost always weighs in on their opinion on someone's possible punishment, it is never one person's opinion that skews someone into receiving said punishment. Bans may feel random, but I can concretely say from years of experience, they are never so. It is not because someone doesn't like you, or the system just hates you. We've had players that I know the staff just loathed, but even when they broke the rules, they skirted by.

Our staff, or at least as far as I have seen, has been a very proud source of integrity and fairness in the justice of the people here at COTH. You can put your faith in Grakor and Kretol to have a commandeering part in the equality and fairness in light of someone's possible punishment. I know that neither of these admins will let anyone fall into unjust hands.
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#23
So, then... Have there been instances where the Warning/3-day-suspension/Ban process wasn't followed?

I mean, I understand it when the situation is truly outrageous, or the person is causing grief for all - it's pretty much necessary in such a case, but I'm referring to circumstances where they weren't attacking the server as a whole or attempting to destabilize it.
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#24
(03-22-2013, 10:23 AM)flammos200 Wrote: So, then... Have there been instances where the Warning/3-day-suspension/Ban process wasn't followed?

I mean, I understand it when the situation is truly outrageous, or the person is causing grief for all - it's pretty much necessary in such a case, but I'm referring to circumstances where they weren't attacking the server as a whole or attempting to destabilize it.

From my experience, this has pretty much only happened when ban circumventions are involved. (Aside from the stuff you mentioned; when zero-tolerance policies are taken for a wild tango.)
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#25
(03-22-2013, 10:25 AM)Loxmardin Wrote:
(03-22-2013, 10:23 AM)flammos200 Wrote: So, then... Have there been instances where the Warning/3-day-suspension/Ban process wasn't followed?

I mean, I understand it when the situation is truly outrageous, or the person is causing grief for all - it's pretty much necessary in such a case, but I'm referring to circumstances where they weren't attacking the server as a whole or attempting to destabilize it.

From my experience, this has pretty much only happened when ban circumventions are involved. (Aside from the stuff you mentioned; when zero-tolerance policies are taken for a wild tango.)

There was also the "Not a right fit" bans, but those were over four years ago, and we learned from that mistake.
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#26
(03-22-2013, 10:23 AM)flammos200 Wrote: So, then... Have there been instances where the Warning/3-day-suspension/Ban process wasn't followed?

I mean, I understand it when the situation is truly outrageous, or the person is causing grief for all - it's pretty much necessary in such a case, but I'm referring to circumstances where they weren't attacking the server as a whole or attempting to destabilize it.

As mentioned before, there are certain cases where a step may be skipped. Beyond the obvious cases of someone attempting to destabilize or attack the server, ban evasions, blatant Rule 2 breaks, and such, we have a few particular cases (including a rather recent one) where we might go straight to suspension or from warning to ban if a player's caustic behavior reaches the point where it convinces the team that reformation is simply impossible. When a player shows a complete lack of remorse for his actions and continues his caustic attitude with GMs trying to speak to him on multiple occasions, we accept our losses and conclude that the player isn't interested in improvement.

And of course, there are instances in the opposite direction, where we may feel a ban is too harsh for a repeat offender's infractions. We've experimented a couple times with longer suspensions after the three-day (and of course have resorted to multiple warnings with certain offenders), though longer than 3-day suspensions are something that never quite caught on.

It's a question on if we value consistency over molding punishments to suit the situation. I would rather treat offenders as individuals rather than rigidly conform to a three-step system.

For banned players, there is of course always the option of posting an appeal, so even more chances may be allowed over time.
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#27
Makes sense. Individualizing the process allows for greater care on a case by case basis, particularly since every human being is different and acts in a different manner. /nodnod. Though, I am a firm believer in due process.

And yup. Appeals are a great idea, despite my feeling that they take a little long. Ah, well, it allows people to cool their jets well 'nuff.
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#28
(03-22-2013, 11:16 AM)flammos200 Wrote: And yup. Appeals are a great idea, despite my feeling that they take a little long. Ah, well, it allows people to cool their jets well 'nuff.

The length of appeals is something I'd like to improve upon, yes. A lot of times an appeal comes in and everyone just sort of waffles around the subject and a decision isn't made for some time. It's something I'll be looking to work on, for both myself and the team.
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#29
This reminds me of the talks when GMs were wide ring how to be more approachable to people.

Why? Some cases it's does feel as if the ban hammer is thrown around randomly. Sometimes it does feel like one is banned randomly then everyone's covering their tracks. Sometimes they need to be approached off CotH away from the rules, say on Skype, and probably try to get to know the person a little? I'm not asking for people to instantly be buddy buddy with the GMs or for GMs to instafriend everyone, but it seems any key step of any counciling is completely skipped. Maybe they don't know how to put their words kindly, maybe they're going through something difficult, maybe they don't know they're even in trouble. Maybe it's even all of those!

People should have a method to contact GMs away from rules to where their off game logs aren't used against them or aren't circulated unless they give permission. I've heard of circumstances where something said out of game and off the forums in some IM being used against them. Unless it's an official CotH channel that shouldn't be cool.

Last point. Please. Please, please, please tell someone that you're going a "formal talking to" before and after said talks to it's known that it's considered a GM intervention. One recently banned person I spoke with claimed he was spoken to twice when I'm seeing claims he was spoken to at least three times. I cannot stress enough how vague GMs or admins can be with it, even if they're not aware. And please remember that "they know what they did" is never a proper excuse to not issue a verbal/typed warning.
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[4:16:27 PM] Cristovao di Silvio ( @CappnRob): theres the bar. then theres the bottom of the barrel, then theres you sachi
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#30
They have good reason for banning people. Its not done haphazardly. Seriously think about how the GMs are viewing you based on what you do. They're not going to tell you everything you do wrong. But you should be able to recognize when you're doing something that they'll take note of, or something that will be reported. Be more self aware of what you do.

I stand by the belief that if you're being a prat to someone off of the server, then we can do something about it by issuing repercussions. And you'd bloody feel that way too if someone was being an arse to you privately but nothing could be done just because it didn't happen on CotH. Are the GMs nervous about using such information? Yes. It's not something they enjoy doing. But if someone's being all sweet to you on the server, then stalking you off of the server, where's the line drawn? When is it okay to use that information? Never? Because I don't think never being able to use that information is a realistic stance.

Generally we didn't take stuff said off the server that seriously. I mean hell, Black Harvest Chat and other stuff exists and people get away with what's said there. But when there's an issue of blatant disrespect, animosity, breaking the rules, all that jazz, something needs to be done.

You're fully capable of talking to GMs without what you say being used against you. They do that a lot. I've personally done that a few times as a GM.
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