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The Future of Lordaeron (Not the Guild Unfortunately)
#1
I've been really pondering this, and I wanted to get everyone's opinion on the matter. The old mantra is that more brains are better then one, and I feel that this really rings true with my problem at hand. The problem is this: what is going on with old Lordaeron? I know that Cataclysm is coming, but I haven't heard about many big changes going on in the decaying Plaguelands, besides the level change, and the acceptable number of alternate, reworked quests.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but here is the state of affairs for our favorite ruined human kingdom. First of all, the Scarlet Crusade is in complete disarray. Their central leadership boarded ships for Northrend, where they were mostly wiped out by regional forces. They were motivated to leave too by a view that the Scarlet Crusade was losing the battle in the Plaguelands, and that things were generally lost. Let's also take a look at the forces that are stationed in this area. Many of the quests from Deathknell to Light's Hope focus on annihilating Scarlet leaders and their many foot soldiers. I know that according to this logic, many other groups should be knocked out, but the Scarlet especially face troubles. Not only are they fighting PCs, but they also face the Scourge, the Forsaken, and the natural elements of the Plaguelands. Couple this with an organization that is built on religious zeal, and not on national pride, and the reticulation rate from births inside the organization may not turn into immediate soldiers.

As for an example, look how quickly New Avalon was destroyed by the Scourge forces. Honestly, after only a little bit, the whole city of New Avalon was destroyed, its inhabitants massacred, and the Scarlet garrison there effectively wiped out. We can only imagine that a similar scale of destruction exists elsewhere.

But what about the Scourge? The mindless killing machine that exists everywhere in the Plaguelands, can't be absent in this discussion either. Baron Rivendare has left Stratholme. He now leads the fight as one of the four Horseman in Naxxaramas. This mobile machine should also be mentioned. Kel'thuzad, who was tasked by Arthas to retain control over the Plaguelands, has been recalled to the icy shores of his master's fortress. Kel'thuzad has left, Baron Rivendare has left, and Stratholme has been attacked furiously, which must weaken the Scarlet Bastion forces, along with the undead stationed there. I'm not one hundred percent sure about the events going on with Scholomance, but I think it means that this will no longer be a threat in the Western Plaguelands either... (definitely quote me if I am wrong on that one though). The Lich King is also being assailed on all sides. He must be losing his grip on the Scourge, like in Warcraft III. As he faces the siege engines of the Horde and the Alliance, and the power of a rejuvenated Tirion Fordring, what use is there in keeping tight Andorhal? Or even Stratholme for that matter? He has more dire things to worry about then a city that may never lose its flame.

This leads me to one underlying question. Why isn't it plausible that these places could be taken back? Think about it for one. Obviously with Cataclysm coming, we don't want to destroy ever mob in place, but it definitely makes sense that at least someone could do a little pushing. Think about people's motives. Sylvanas, after Wrathgate, needs to make a large statement to the Horde. Perceived as weak, and unable to control her people, empire building can be just the answer. Think about real life here. Whenever there has been internal struggle or weakness, leaders have used external dealings, imperialism, and war in order to quell the threats. It distracts people, and gives them pride, and makes them stop thinking about the troubles they face. Especially after the business with the Sin'sholai, the Undead should be every ready to show that they are a force to be reckoned with. The same feelings should resonate with the Blood Elves. They are struggling to rebuild Silvermoon, which should make people wary of expansion. But what better statement could a brand new leader make to bring his people together, then an advancement into the Plaguelands?

As for the humans, conditions remain attractive too. Lordaeron was the bastion of humanity, and although Stormwind remains strong, it is Lordaeron that the humans prided themselves for. It was a place of refugee after the First War, and for years, it was all that was good and right in the world. The Argent Dawn is fragmented, and has mostly moved on their operations to the Lich King himself. With Stromgarde rebuilt, the Alliance has once again set its eyes on the north. Unfortunately for them, any operations there would obviously attract unwanted attention from the Undead and the Blood Elves. The humans though, have many X-factors. Calia Menethil, Arthas' sister, may still exist somewhere. She is effectively, the real Queen of Lordaeron. A rally from someone like her, who has an actual claim to the throne, may bring strength to Alliance forces. Also, the Alliance could seek a pact with the Scarlet Crusade. Although things could never be perfect, it may be the best deal that the remaining Scarlet forces are offered. Additionally, there are many Lordaeron refugees, and all of humanity should feel some draw to reclaim it, especially from the Horde. Now might be their best chance to take it.

There is also a large logistical question. The Alliance, in order to really be able to find this place livable, would require the work of Plagueshifters, along with Druids and Priests, in order to really make the land 'back to the way it needs to be.' The Horde on the other hand, is not in need of such a change. The Plague across old Lordaeron, is the old plague, and would have no real detrimental effect on the Forsaken who already have dealt with it. It may be disastrous for the Blood Elves, but it is much easier for the Horde to make it livable, because the Undead can do it, and then guard it as the Horde Plagueshifters do their work.

Now I'm not a fan of immediately saying, we should just retake this and have it all better again. A reclaimed Lordaeron is implausible in any sense. Even a reclaimed Stratholme is far-fetched. And, an Alliance reconstruction of old-style Lordaeron, is the farthest from what I am getting at. All I am saying is that the Plaguelands specifically, offer a very unique situation that we don't see a lot of in the Warcraft universe...a void. The Scourge is reeling, the Crusade is broken, and the Dawn is off in bigger and better things. The motivation is there for both sides. It's the homeland for both the Forsaken, and to an extent the Blood Elves, and it is still probably a shrine for many Lordaeron citizens living in diaspora in Azeroth.

If at any time...the roleplay opportunities in this place are ripe.

But I'm not suggesting roleplay exclusively. I wanted to place this in general discussion, because I wanted people's opinions not only on the opportunity in old Lordaeron, but what they think about what I've laid out here. Motives, intrigue? Think I've got it all wrong...I'd really like to discuss this.
Arinus Isgar - Citizen of Alterac
Rothas Darkcaller - Forsaken Imperialist
Gorum Stonefist - Servant of the Warsong
Durien Thunderbeard - Dwarven Priest of Lordaeron
Sathon Kothsor - Blood Knight
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#2
I think there are enough liches in the Plaguelands to pose a real threat. They're among the few members of the Scourge without a tight domination over them, because they need to have intelligence to rule over so many of their own creations. If Arthas falls, liches will rise to power and gain control of their own fiefdoms of Undead. Add to that the blighted land that is detrimental to life, and the fungi that spew toxic spores into the air and you have the reason no one has made a big effort to take anything back. The legions of the shambling dead are nearly endless, after all.

This is the main reason no one has done this. It's just really damn hard to live out there. Consider as well that it's poorly placed between two Horde capitals, and you can see the reasoning of most people in not attempting it. Assuming those challenges could be circumvented, it's reasonable considering the Argent Dawn's minor successes there.
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#3
The Scourge is operated in a sort of node command system where Liches relay the Lich King's will onto the lesser minions, acting as sort of becons for the undead. It's been known for undead that wander too far away from a Lich tend to revert to their more mindless, instinctual ways, as opposed to being properly organized when they are closer.

Aside from that, a lot of the plaguelands is too infested to be worth living in, as Kaghuros said.
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#4
Kaghuros is right about the liches. If the Lich King dies, the liches become autonomous, and the fact that they are could bring up a whole situation here. Keep in mind that liches were once humans and orcs. If they regain self-control, it is very likely that not only will they continue to control these lands, but perhaps a war between the liches may ensue due to power struggles and what not.
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#5
The Lordaeron guild, made up of those refugees that want to retake the lands to the east of the old Lordaeron, namely the plague lands were fought on every turn to do any of this from both GM's as well as players, ooc and what not. For the GMs the problem was that they did not want to overpower a faction too much, though I have a nasty feeling that they will grant the land to the horde because events of the server tend to lean that direction it seems.

The other problem is that the forces are so spread out and thin apparently. With all of our forces concentrated in the Northrend continent, the Horde and the Alliance would not have the rescources to do anything on the scale of retaking something so large as the plague lands. Once again, I get that nasty feeling.

The roleplay around the Lordaeron guild died down pretty quickly when the roleplay ran into a perverbial wall of denial that saturates the people in stormwind. RPly, Thorval has been working on starting supply ships sailing from booty bay to southshore, seeking out the merchants that the recent defias guild must have abandoned after their leader and many of their forces killed off. The goblins would be eager to get the excess goods sold I am thinking.

We are also waiting upon the Noble that we got into contact with before about receiving aid from Stormwind nobles for the plan of action, but we have not heard from them either. Lots of inactivity, and its annoying for me as well because I am in the army and cannot always be online to constantly work at making this thing work out, but rply Thorval has been working extremely hard on all sides to keep things afloat, though it seems like a one man boat.

I am watching eagerly to see how events turn out with this plague lands/lordaeron business. The guild might be pretty inactive now but if we get an event going alliance side, we would jump right back up.
http://dragcave.net/view/KIkp Feed my Dragon Please?
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#6
I would imagine that these "fiefdoms of Liches" as you called them, or "Lichdoms" would in a way - act as the Holy Roman Empire did. Absolutely fragmented against one another, yet unified against their common enemy - the living. I would imagine Forsaken influence, if any, to be the main thing to gain a foothold in these forgotten Plaguelands since Sylvanas has proven time and time again that she's a brutal political dog.

I would imagine one or two of these Liches becoming "Nobles", in a sense, under Sylvanas. Then again, she may just have them killed off if given the chance.

And yet - Liches can raise new Undead. Something that would be invaluable for the Forsaken . . . Hmmm.
'O happy race of men
If Love who rules the sky
Could rule your hearts as well!' ~ Boethius
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#7
I'm pretty sure that the new Lich King, whomever s/he'll be, will keep a tight grip around all of the Scourge to prevent them from going on a rampage as warned by Uther, which leaves us pretty much in the open to the future of the Scourge-held territories, for all we know murlocs might have taken over and created their own "kingdom" there in Cataclysm.
All makt åt Tengil, vår befriare!

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#8
In my personal opinion, the Lordaeron type of guild is hard to manifest. For the most part, the Plaguelands are unlivable, and it is almost an impossible goal that humanity would ever be able to retake those places. Stratholme, if I remember correctly is plunged in an almost eternal flame, for it has been burning for what seems like aeons. And with these new revelations about the liches, it seems like a reclaimed human state is just utopian. Realistically, the only places they'd be able to inhabit effectively would by Tyr's Hand and Hearthglen, but both of these places would be under constant attack from Scarlet remnants, Horde incursions, and most importantly the war machine (Scourge). And most importantly, Calia Menethil, a beacon for what could be a resurgence in human activity in the north, remains lost, likely a mindless skeleton.

Therefore, what as I see as the most viable solution would be a Horde surge in the area. As I stated in the first post, Sylvanas is looking for a way to prove herself after the events at Wrathgate. It is her motivation for attacking the Worgen in Cataclysm, because the Horde desires a port in Lordaeron, which seems weird because of the isolation and thereby power that could be derived from the Elven shipyards in Quel'thalas. What I think right now could occur is that the Forsaken, spurred by Sylvanas' new imperialism, would try and get a foothold into the Western Plaguelands. The Eastern Plaguelands are much harder to tackle, and as we know, the Forsaken are able to live in the plagued zones without the same restrictions as other races. Maybe they could retake Hearthglen. Hearthglen's only real adversary is in Andorhal, and with the events transpiring in Scholomance, it is not sure how they could provide a lot of help. With the Scarlets scattered, I feel it is the best time for them to do this. Maybe a spearheaded effort with Nathanos Blightcaller leading a new onslaught and placed as the new commander. This new place could be constantly bombarded with Scourge attacks, and could be a base for the Knights of the Queen or any other Forsaken oriented guilds. Maybe even there could be other races there that are trying to survive, but have to wear some type of mask to survive in the Plaguelands for an extended time.

But this new Hearthglen would have to be much darker. Scarlets being imprisoned and lead to the slaughter, and human refugees who come to its walls being captured and brought in for the newest apothecary experimentations. Maybe some Plagueshifters could be there trying to save the land, but it is almost to no avail. Maybe there could even be mutinous soldiers betting on fights by little crypt fiends (aka cockfights), or the large gladiator battles between captured Scarlets and abominations. With the Undercity receiving a FULL facelift, it only makes sense that the Forsaken want to push further elsewhere.
Arinus Isgar - Citizen of Alterac
Rothas Darkcaller - Forsaken Imperialist
Gorum Stonefist - Servant of the Warsong
Durien Thunderbeard - Dwarven Priest of Lordaeron
Sathon Kothsor - Blood Knight
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#9
Unfortunatly I have to agree with Thorvals feeling of unease at the signs. Things are not looking good and it was not for lack of trying that Lordaeron [The guild] Fell out of action. A general discouragment and lack of support for a northern campagne Utterly crushed us.

As much as I loath to think about it, a new litch king being raised would pose some pretty drastic changes to the game.

First if Sylvanis were able to wrest the title of Litch [queen?] From arthas, Forsaken control would explode into northrend, and plaguelands, giveing her the ability to have an iron fist over the ENTIRE north and a will to use it against anyone that oposed her. The forsaken would no longer need the horde and it would probibly result in a break off from the horde, whom the forsaken view as tools, weakening that faction conciderably, and a slow, inevitable drive to conquor anything and everything in her path.

If Fordragon were to take up the Litch Kings throne, Scourge control would probibly become neutral or even self destructive if he thought it would be best to cripple the scourge as much as posible. The litch in the plaguelands would either remain under his control, following this new will. [In this best case senario the scourge would then be used to attack the forsaken, and the plaguelands would be open to human rebuilding]

I cannot immagine Jaina takeing up the litch kings title so I'll not go into that too much but I would think the results might be similar to Fordragons if a little more less likely to attack the forsaken.

For those who point out yet -again- that the plaguelands are vile and unlivable, Why must I always point out that the plagued lands have been prooven as CUREABLE by DRUIDS. if a slow and tireing process it is still POSIBLE. The poison and fumes also cannot be that bad as Scarlets and Argent Dawn members have been fighting up there for a decade and have managed to hold on that long at least.

As for the Scarlet strongholds, they are pretty up for grabs now, plague free, defendable positions where nither the Alliance nor the horde would be able to pose a large threat from outside as they would face the defenders and the scourge from behind, while the defenders would have no trouble holding off the scourge now that the litch king does not have a massive army of Deathknights to help, as that is mainly what helped him destroy new Avalon so quickly.
"The battle field is my alter... Time to worship..." -Unknown-

"We have been broken... We have been shattered... But we are still alive... We are still standing... We are coming." -Thorval von Gunhildur-
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#10
Note that when the Argent dawn and the Scarlet crusade held on all by themselves with little support from anyone, Either faction, horde or alliance would find it much easier to accomplish something when pressing into the plaguelands with fresh supplys and alot more manpower than a small organization like the Argent dawn can pull together.
"The battle field is my alter... Time to worship..." -Unknown-

"We have been broken... We have been shattered... But we are still alive... We are still standing... We are coming." -Thorval von Gunhildur-
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