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Valen, screenshots, and cleaning up
#16
As a quick note, it would really be helpful if people point out insufficient introductions to us, as I know people tend to browse through them. If you come across an introduction with one-line answers and no attempt at decent typing ability, do feel free to point it out with a report. I put in a report reason for insufficient intros several months back, and not once has it been used. Granted, I should have pointed it out...

One other thing I've been contemplating is to allow Grunts+ to view (but not post in) the Questionnaires forum. That way, people could PM their feedback on certain folks as they see fit.

Finally, we have been considering some decent methods to reimplement 'screened' introductions, so to speak. The hard part is coming up with a fair way to give folks that seem like they could improve a chance, while blocking those that are very obviously not even attempting to learn about a community they're aiming to join. One thing I've been thinking of is to require approval for every topic in the Introductions forum, and to also not require a story until it's time for Gruntship. Again, though, it's still being decided.
I Am the Sea



Need an easy way to host/link files and images? Check this thread!

Try to never just say, "My character isn't interested in that adventure." A lot of people mistake this for good roleplaying, because you are asserting your character's personality. Wrong. Good roleplaying should never bring the game to a screeching halt. One of your jobs as a player is to come up with a reason why your character would be interested in a plot. After all, your personality is entirely in your hands, not the DM's. Come up with a reason why the adventure (or the reward) might appeal to you, no matter how esoteric or roundabout the reasoning. -(Source)
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#17
I don't know Kret....Grunt+? Might garner more criticism about this hierarchy thing again. Even if they don't get any special powers from Grunts whatsoever except from giving feedback, people still might say 'Oh look at Mr. Big Shoes'.
[Image: 2r3hym9.png]
Main Characters:
Riggs Ravenhook - Swarmy Old Goblin Thief and Corporate Nuisance
Gorudo Goldforge - Goldforge Clan Remnant and Ranger
Turic Carsten - Stormwind Regular

http://diethe.deviantart.com/
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#18
Reading the whole mess start to finish paints a rather vivid view of the situation. Not good, not bad, just vivid. There is something I would like to point out before the wall of text begins and people zone out or scroll to the bottom. -RP servers are elitest by nature otherwise they suck- You have those who are really good and those who are really bad, most float in the middle. If you remove all of those who are really bad and continue to do so without a formalized system the terms for it continue to be more and more strict until there is no point of reference.

Is there a formalized system with a basic listing of what shouldn't be allowed from new members? YES yes there is, in fact it says it straight through on both introduction and profiling systems. There are established bare minimum skills necessary to play here. If someone doesn't conform to these bare minimums then ban away.

The staff is asking for feedback, the population also needs feedback. We need to know when we're screwing up in your eyes, the back stabbing goes both ways here guys. Members are told to PM when we see something wrong, the same courtesy should be sent back. Common sense right? I know the GMs are busy and don't have a lot of time, that goes with the job. With great power comes great responsibility, if it becomes too much, call in reinforcements.

I've been here and watching for nearly a month, not quite qualifying for gruntship myself and already I can see the private war raging just under the surface. I've seen this sort of thing in lots of the places I've been, I've seen small groups torn apart and whole servers with hundreds of people go down because of what isn't being said.

Information is both the key and the curse, if you look behind the magician's curtain it ruins the magic. GMs need the ability to hide certain information from the population until they're ready to present that information in a constructive way. The key point I'm trying to make is that that information does in fact need to come out. If you guys want to do a purge list, by all means please do and please make sure you talk to the players on it before you get to the finalized list, give them a chance to change. We have nothing but time here. When the formal list is posted, give us the reasons why they were removed, we'll understand.

No one freaks out when everything is going according to plan.

I'd like to point out the three things that have given me the biggest grief here.
1) Lack of combined information on server lore, rules, regulations and laws both in game and out. Specifically, Sin'sholai information which is scattered about, Warlock do's and don'ts and global OOC communication guidelines. Barrenschat is supposed to be no holds barred so long as it's PG-13, yet it isn't.

2) GM authority vs responsibility issues. It seems like there is always a GM online but there isn't always a GM in "GM mode" settling disputes and handling game matters. There is something to be said when the easiest way to get in touch with a GM actually is to pick a verbal fight in order to have a GM throw up their icon and lean on those involved.

3) We're human. There is a long list of merits and flaws that go with this condition. One of them is the need for a target/goal/ideal/enemy to focus on. If you kick out all the jerks, we'll find more jerks until there are only two people left both holding rocks to beat each other to death with. That's human. We're always going to form small groups of like minded people, also known as cliques, that exclude others from it. This is fine, if you want the server widdled down until only the primary clique remains, that's fine too. It's your world, the rest of us are visiting. If you want a complex and comprehensive in depth alternate reality, as most people claim, that takes a substantially larger investment in time and effort. It also takes patience and tolerance which aren't exactly easy. This patience and tolerance has to come from both sides as well.

We come here to play, immerse ourselves in something that isn't the day to day drudgery of life then complain when drama happens? Drama is entertaining, tabloids sell because people want scandal. Sex sells too but sex with scandal sells even better. When RP becomes drudgery someone will shake things up, someone will complain about the method and the drama will begin all over again. Drama isn't a bad thing, uncontrolled chaotic back biting and childish bickering is. We're better than that, we're RPers. RPers can come up with the most intense drama ever seen by our species. Let's try to keep our chaos in check and keep the drama where it needs to be - IN GAME.

Wall of text complete - Graffiti welcome.
"In your world, power is determined by who has the biggest bombs. In my world, power is determined by yahtzee skills and who has the cutest kitty quote. Which is really the sane one?"
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#19
I'm glad that reintroduction of the Introduction Approval system is at least being considered. I was very disappointed to see it get axed, but I understood the necessity as we only had, what, 4? GMs at the time. Now that we have a significant number of GMs, I've been quietly (perhaps too quietly) grumbling about the system needed to be brought back for close to a couple of months now.

Regarding the rest of this mess... Unfortunate. Saddening. But we need to move on now, as a community.
"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?" --Thomas Jefferson
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#20
Maulbane Wrote:I think this was a much better, more thought out idea. It's not the fact that you were banning people, that's fine, bans happen, but it's the fact that nobody was supposed to know.

Before that was posted there was a long discussion about who should be banned, there was even a list. Much like how we have been doing it this time. However, people from that time, who "lived" through the two first public clean ups have said that they did not like it, that it scared them to see these lists come up and then people just disappeared. They would much have prefered that if it was taken care of quickly with little commotion, which is why we decided to go through with it like this instead.

And one last thing to consider, that list was not final. It was players who any GM have had trouble with or heard many complaints about, which is why there's a 3 page discussion on who should be on the list, who should be on the "warning" part (which were people who we decided could need a serious talk to, that is, not be banned but warned) and who should be removed completely, from the list that is.


@Diethe - What he means with Grunt+ is, I assume, grunts and everyone above.

I would respond to more people, but I am so cool that I have to leave, cuz I'm going to Neckbreaker's Ball!

Edit! Since it seems I have more time than I thought I'll add something little here.

I was a player like anyone else when the very first "Clean Up" occured, it came after a lot of building up of pressure, daily complaints both on forums and in game about bad rolplayers not adhering to rules etc, pretty much what we've had now. Then the GMs posted a topic in the server news called something along the lines of Cleaning Up, within they stated that in the next few days they would ban seval people who have been detrimental to the server, most of those players hadn't caused enough harm to be banned based solely on that, but due to the high amount of these players bending rules or disregarding it when GMs weren't around that it was too much.

I think you understand how scary it was to know that some people would be banned, but having no idea of who those would be. The feeling was almost that everyone assumed they themselves was on Santa-... the GMs "black list", for several weeks after it people ducked low and didn't date do much out of fear for another of these Cleaning Up topics appearing, maybe with their name on it.

Looking back at that, and then the event when we had our last little "Clean up" which we decided to do without any big scary announcements and instead just remove the disturbing players quickly and with just a little breathing room inbetween. People didn't get upset by the later one, in fact, after it at least I noted the comments in game how calm stuff had become, so we had the end result but without weeks of fear or being labeled elitist assholes for banning X or Y for "little" things.
All makt åt Tengil, vår befriare!

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#21
I don't, personally, trust myself to go on at the huge lengths about this that I normally do about other tricky situations. I'm probably liable to start ranting. So I'll be brief (<gasp> what a concept!)

Edit:: I just realised that this statementabove could be taken as a sign that I feel some people may need to be blamed for this (beyond Valen, naturally), or that there has been some grand failing among the GMs. I mean nothing of the sort. I simply, and plainly mean that incidents such as this tend to automatically make me angry. It's gossipy, petty, pointless, and designed to start "stuff", regardless of whatever intent the initiator may or may not have had. Things like that get my goat rather quickly.

What happened was simply appalling in my book. I don't think it should have happened, for any number of reasons. I am, frankly, impressed by the amount of reasonable speech present in this thread. CotH as a whole might I only hope such sanity continues.

I, personally, after reading the old thread - would have much preferred it be handled in that way - but, again, I am a big fan of transparency, and of the enlightened-populace sort of thinking. I'm well aware that it doesn't work even half as well in practice.

I can't exactly speak for anyone else, but I have, and will continue to enjoy my time here, for as long as I am here - and if I were walking down a path that lead towards being banned I would appreciate knowing.

I've got other things to say that have been raised by the issue - but, after consideration - I'm refraining from posting them here. These aren't things that I'm refusing to say or talk about - and I am sure I will bring them up - but rather they are far closer related to an entirely different issue, and it's just not fair or appropriate to bring them up here.

Until next time, CotH,
-Rimewynd
Yes, I have a Companion Cube. It came with the software I use to do my job. Makes you wonder about their expectations for user's mental health, doesn't it?

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[Image: badge.jpg]
Because I privately yearn to be shu'halo?
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#22
Yo Nostra, the thing about avoiding drama while handing out bans is cool but what about telling/warning the players before you started putting names into that list?
To ban people without making it public would have been cool if those players had been issued warnings or advised so as to improve, by you guys before.

Some player does something wrong, no one tells him about it, he thinks it is all cool and then you guys ban him. Frankly speaking, this needs to be changed.

Edit:
Quote:They were making a list to figure out who needed to be talked to and what not, that process was interrupted.
If that is the case then I apologise for having written all that above.
I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong.
Bertrand Russell
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#23
Since it seems it was a partial list - It might of looked something like

Step 1: List Clarification
Step 2: Warnings & Reactions
Step 3: Ban Hammerfall


*shrug*

Yes, some form of warning and chance to amend would be nice, even if only a quick PM or whisper.
Spoiler:
[Image: Boys.jpg]
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#24
They were making a list to figure out who needed to be talked to and what not, that process was interrupted.
"In your world, power is determined by who has the biggest bombs. In my world, power is determined by yahtzee skills and who has the cutest kitty quote. Which is really the sane one?"
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#25
First off: Valen o.0

Second off: A clean up? Despite having too much booze which is disabling my ability to type and comprehend it fully, I needed to post on this. I read Nostra's post up three times in a silent hope to understand it better, but afraid the alcohol beats me to it as I'm like "O.O" in real life.

Quote:I think you understand how scary it was to know that some people would be banned, but having no idea of who those would be. The feeling was almost that everyone assumed they themselves was on Santa-... the GMs "black list", for several weeks after it people ducked low and didn't date do much out of fear for another of these Cleaning Up topics appearing, maybe with their name on it.

I can say I feel like that currently, knowing I've previously been warned once for stuff I won't go into detail on, I'm.. afraid. Perhaps it would have indeed been better without a announcement, but heh. I at least send the GMs a PM stating my issues several days ago.

Reading this though:
Quote:I know I'm annoying, but in the whole 8 months I've been here I've never had a PM, whisper or reply in the forums stating that I should actually change my behavior, so how should other players know? I'm fine with being banned at the moment, in fact go ahead nocressynotyou as I won't hold a grudge, but . . . It's unfair on half of those players that are/were/will be banned, as they don't even know they have flaws they need to fix.

I'm afraid I have to agree on that, people don't get notified and I've admittedly have at least 2 PMs in my inbox of peons who got banned, 1 of a grunt asking me why the heck they did get banned. Perhaps it'd at least be nice to send them a email stating why and for how long the duration is? I know I'd be bummed as understatement to find myself banned from here.

Quote:I'm glad that reintroduction of the Introduction Approval system is at least being considered. I was very disappointed to see it get axed, but I understood the necessity as we only had, what, 4? GMs at the time. Now that we have a significant number of GMs, I've been quietly (perhaps too quietly) grumbling about the system needed to be brought back for close to a couple of months now.

While I assume you wish the rest to be brought back as well (but that's not on-topic) I agree, I've seen a lot of people actually.. lowering the RP quality. Sure, I have my faults as well, and actually have people smacking my head to correct it (heh, thanks Lily), there are still people using brackets in say to announce things, making ooc emotes and all that. It would filter a lot of people out who just come here by stating "Hi, I luv to rp and all that and so.. this is my intro"or whatever they type. I'm admittedly not going in that section too much.

I hope this makes sense.. I'll make a note to review it and fix anything later >.> My ideas should be (vaguely) clear.

<3
Quote:Perhaps one day, at a new sight,
We will search again for that light.
Hold it close, between our arms,
Listen again, to the priestess her charms.
- Me, in a poetry named "The Priestess."
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#26
I'm totally aware of the whole, nobody told me thing. I personally make a point of telling people if they are breaking rules and warning them lest a GM DOES get involved. This may annoy people but I honestly feel a need. Before a clean up is issued though, I think a compulsory questionnaire should be issued. Or perhaps a database sweep. This would show all those players that have previously had issues, myself probably included, and have an investigation of some sort. I KNOW this would be time consuming but it is probably the best way to do it. Also players could lie, but that is simply bad, you should seek to prove yourself, not denounce yourself when someone finds out later. Great idea though, it DOES need to be done.
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#27
There is a difference between doing it quietly, and not telling people. While yes, we did intend to retain the dignity of those involved, we would have still posted it up in the area were we, well, put bans.

As for what happened, I'm not ashamed for what I've said about people, but I am ashamed for the way you, as players, have found out. It's pretty unfair to be -hit- with a list like that. For that, I do appologize, but for the same token I wouldn't think you suys would wanna see our "warning" threads. First off, it'd only breed rumors, hostility, and arguments.

Do we -need- more of that shit here, or do you guys wanna let us handle things?

Sorry to be blunt, but I'm hurt by those involved, whether they be a GM or a player, since this kind of info should be -private-. And for a damn good reason.
[Image: desc_head_freemasons.jpg]

△Move along.△


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#28
Take it like a man GM! I fully support GMs taking this private. NOBODY wants to see if they are on the wanted list. This way, they don't. Also, that wanted list is ongoing. People get added, people get removed. If you don't see either there is no problems.
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#29
Rensin Wrote:There is a difference between doing it quietly, and not telling people. While yes, we did intend to retain the dignity of those involved, we would have still posted it up in the area were we, well, put bans.

As for what happened, I'm not ashamed for what I've said about people, but I am ashamed for the way you, as players, have found out. It's pretty unfair to be -hit- with a list like that. For that, I do appologize, but for the same token I wouldn't think you suys would wanna see our "warning" threads. First off, it'd only breed rumors, hostility, and arguments.

Do we -need- more of that shit here, or do you guys wanna let us handle things?

Sorry to be blunt, but I'm hurt by those involved, whether they be a GM or a player, since this kind of info should be -private-. And for a damn good reason.

Now that I relogged and got rid of my drunk effect.. I agree with this. I haven't seen the list myself in all honesty, and the whole drama thing must have occurred with me not being here since I can't recall a single thing about it. (And no, I wasn't that wasted) Nobody wants to read their name in a black book or.. well, you get my point.

<.< What Ben said.

I'm all for letting the GMs handle things, their the GMs after all. But I still think the GMs should provide the banned player with reasons through PM/Email/whatever stating why and the duration of the ban (if it's not permanent), that way, players can cool down and if they improved enough, actually return to the server. If they never return, then I doubt they would fit in that well anyway. But, that's not the topic here.. As far as I understand.

Back on topic: Things happened, people got hurt, make a note and take pre-cautions to prevent it from happening again. That's life. Life is never fair and always harsh, but those two things do form us into what we are and will become. Heh.
/quitdeepgoingsayings
Quote:Perhaps one day, at a new sight,
We will search again for that light.
Hold it close, between our arms,
Listen again, to the priestess her charms.
- Me, in a poetry named "The Priestess."
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#30
Aruen Wrote:I'm all for letting the GMs handle things, their the GMs after all. But I still think the GMs should provide the banned player with reasons through PM/Email/whatever stating why and the duration of the ban (if it's not permanent), that way, players can cool down and if they improved enough, actually return to the server. If they never return, then I doubt they would fit in that well anyway. But, that's not the topic here.. As far as I understand.

We do, do that. :>
[Image: anigif_mobile_9893b2566588ab845c7985f71769a9f2-7.gif]
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