Conquest of the Horde

Nostra Wrote:If you do see someone roleplaying a character 'wrongly' PM them and talk to the player about it, explain your view and, perhaps, they will change. Or they might open your eyes to their interpretation of the lore.

Or they could be stubborn, rude and flip you off, in which case your best bet is to end the conversation, screenshot and PM a GM.

I can only repeat this, if you think someone badly portrays a class/race/whatever talk to them, encourage them to read the lore etc.

Oh I shall! Thanks Nostra.

But perhaps maybe...

The GMs could encourage it too when checking profiles? I mean, sure it isn't going to get the point across...

Actually the only way to effectively do such would be to make 'em special profiles. I hear really good things about that, but I mean, can you list some reasons why you think that would be a bad idea? Just because they were made a base class doesn't mean they have to be easily attainable here, in fact I know other servers where they require approved profiles to be played.

CharizardDylan Wrote:Astus.Just brainstorming options that will make everyone happy. but I can see how guides can be lost and forgotten. I guess this, as with every debate, will make somebody unhappy.

Jack, Fair enough, I was merely suggesting that Death Knights are supposed to behave a certain way, because that is how they are programmed. They were killed and reconstructed as undead soldiers, and should act as such. I thought it might be helpful to remind people of this, as well as cover any other bases with a nice guide.

Of course someone is going to be unhappy, they're losing their instant gratification.

Gaiaboy10 Wrote:How about we make Forsaken special profiles too?

They're dead, and therefore can't feel much pain. They don't need to breath or eat. They're immune to diseases. Hey, they sound pretty over powered to me!

Death Knights are no more powerful than any other class and, in some cases, less powerful. We need no restrictions placed on them.

And squirrel, I completely agree that it depends on who you've RPed with. But that's all the more reason not to do it. You're saying "Because I've seen bad RPers, I want us to restrict the good ones I haven't seen as well." In doing this, you're indeed discouraging bad RPers from making DKs. But you're doing the same to people who were doing it right.

Ugh. I have to agree that a lot of people seem to have -far- to happy Death Knights. Although I have seen people who RP them as terrible, hateful, -evil-, murdering and killing machines. I RP mine as uncaring in general. Sits alone, dislikes company aside from fellow Knights. And only seems excited or cheerful during battle. And even more so when injured. It reminds him of his mortality, and he likes that. Like I just said, restricting the bad ones is restricting the good ones.

Gaiaboy, I just must say, Forsaken are not on par with a death knight in terms of undead. Death knights have increased natural armor, natural strength, literally a lot. They're far more rotten, weakening their bones and making them lose defenses. They don't have innate runic power that lets them cast powerful and deadly spells. In fact, Death knight is a mix of runemaster, necromancer, and a warrior. It's not that I want to restrict the good ones, it's simply the fact that I want there to only BE good ones. They are very powerful, deadly weapons, it's not the fact they can't be hurt or things like that, they're built for combat. They're built for destruction and there are mental complexities that some people do not RP well. It sounds like you're playing yours well, though.

Playing them as terrible, hateful, -evil- murdering and killing machines is shallow as well, they should probably feel an uncontrollable lust for battle and death, but shame for it later. Death knights do have some emotions, they simply lack joy, love, usually confidence...or they might display a false confidence when inwardly they're afraid? I keep getting distracted, so there's probably like 5 pages now.

People used to argue that paladins should be special profiles, they used to be a 'hero' class too, and people often complain of how they are portrayed. The same can essentially be said about mages, warlocks and... well, every spellcasting class we have. Making them special profiles will not help anything, the best solution is to lead by example, show how they generally should be portrayed and try to help people who don't seem to have any idea of the lore behind their class/race by talking to them. Sure, GMs could become stricter with profiles, I know I try to be rather strict while not nitpicking the profile to death, but every GM has their own standard and expectations which we have to take into account.

Not much to add to this.


I mean, really. At max, you -might- have three Death Knights. Max.

I personally have two, both undead, and both I hardly role-play on.

I do not think it would be the end of the world if we created a rule where you had to make a profile for Death Knights to be role-played.

It'll give the player a ground plan and plot to work with the character, and understand the lore and how to role-play the Death Knight correctly.

I can't tell you how many times I seen utter failure role-play by Death Knights in Booty Bay on a lore standpoint. Sorry for the bluntness, but truth hurts. I'm almost discouraged to even think about making a living death knight simply for the sake of rolling the closest thing to a blood mage that I can. Just because I'm not sure if I can role-play him correctly, and that there's 20 more out there that are living.


... So.. /shrug. I'd think this would be a great idea to put in place to simply require a profile. You get a level 80, 3k gold, and a character to play. Is that -really- so -bad-?

I'd be fine with muhaha's way, if the GM's have acceptable do's and don't.

Even if they're not special profiles, perhaps require a profile for them?

Basically.

I can agree with that wholeheartedly. A profile will be required to play them, and a special profile required for a Living DK sounds completely reasonable.

Also to be clear, we're not talking about power, mostly. While technically they're stronger than an average man, we're not talking about that, it's mostly the mental complexity required to play one.

Oddly enough for me, as I tend to be a fairly lore-strict individual, I -don't- support making DKs a Special Profile, or Profileable in order to be played.

My reasons for this opinion are as follow: First off, even in 'the good old days', just post-AllDeathKnightsAreSpecialProfiles-times, Living DKs were normal Profiles. I should know, as I've seen some of the first of 'em to be around. 'Twas fun. Back then, at least...

Secondly, if anything out of the ordinary about a class is to be Special Profiled, then similarly, Evil Paladins or Paladins that associate with generally Evil people(Like Warlocks), non-Forsaken Shadow Priests, Uncorrupted Warlocks, Battlemagi, and so on, should also be Special Profiles, because, to the reasoning of this thread, anything that is moderately complex to portray properly, should be done with as such.
This is unfeasable.

Thirdly, I see nothing to comment on the situations of players that actually do portray Living Death Knights properly. They're far more vulnerable than undead ones... How does one even consider Undeath as being a 'drawback'? Undead are incredibly resillient, feel no pain(Except from Light. But All DKs are hurt by that, so it's not an issue.), don't die of blood loss, can practically be dismembered and put back together, and so on. If anything, being alive is a drawback.
Are we telling people not to debilitate or intentionally weaken their characters?

I can't really talk as far as an approval process is concerned, as my couple of Death Knights have already passed through that, -but-, I think it would be unfair to players who -do- have them, for them to be taken away, and unfair to new players who -want- to make them, to be put through tribulations that previous players weren't.

If anything, the ability of a player to choose what kind of Death Knight they wish to portray is a good thing. We don't play for strength here. We play for diversity and enjoyment. For everyone's enjoyment.
Would we truly wish to limit those that have the ability to portray their characters properly, just because a small handful don't have that same skill?

I've looked through a number of forums, a while back, and saw -enormous- amounts of drama coming out of the previous DKs-as-Special Profiles system, leading to elitism and flaming the likes of which CoTH hasn't seen since. That was why the system was changed to the one we have today.
This -is- the reform. And it is a good one, in my opinion.

There are a number of things which I do think should be said, however. For one, I completely, wholeheartedly agree with what Nostra said on helping educate fellow players as to the Lore surrounding their chosen class -and- race. I personally believe that once one has a keen understanding of what and who they are playing, they'll do a much better job at portraying their character. Seriously, help eachother out if indeed you feel that people are portraying their characters wrongly.

Don't axe the people that might be trying to do things right. Instead, give a helping hand to everyone. Some will be wise and shall take it. Others will slap it away. That's the way things work in life... You can't help those that don't consent to being helped. Else it will only lead to conflict, complaining, flaming and 'raeg'.

Those are my two cents. I know I'm not going to make another Death Knight, so the discussion most likely doesn't concern me... But I felt I needed to express my opinion. Maybe it changed something. Maybe it helped...
I can only hope...

Flammie out.

1) Flammos, I disagree with the whole living DK thing anyways. The only one I know of in lore is Arthas, and, if we can play what lore-characters are, give me a Shaman-Mage-thing.

2) I, in all my being-related-to-Danalthar-ness, would be perfectly fine with that.

3) If they portray them properly, then let them. If they don't have a profile up, then one should not be very hard to write with a months time limit. However, this thread is about the ones that don't play it correctly. I've stated it before, I believe, but good ones shouldn't have a problem and bad ones will be gone. And with Aphetoros or Muhaha's suggestion, we won't limit them. Everyone talks as if writing profiles is worse than pulling a sperm whale up a hill.

4) On the drama. Again, I point to what I said in my first post. "Quality over Quantity". If they're confident that they can RP a Death Knight correctly, then let them make a profile. It's not that hard.

5) Some people get offended when you try to help them. I know, woe onto them for being narrow-minded bastards, but it's more of a pain to the helpers when this happens. I'm not saying it will happen, but it very well could.

6) Writing a profile is not that hard.

Flammos, you mention "Evil Paladins or Paladins that associate with generally Evil people(Like Warlocks), non-Forsaken Shadow Priests, Uncorrupted Warlocks, Battlemagi" should be profile only as well, however what I'd simply like to say is this: those don't take nearly the skill to RP as a death knight, IMHO. There is a deeper MENTAL complexity to them unlike the ones you named that needs to be taken into account.

I approve of the original post.

Well, time to get involved in this discussion and I'll start by saying that maybe fully denying Death Knights to everyone unless they write a profile is a bad idea.





After a large pause and back to the main topic, living Death Knights should be speaical profiles. They are called -DEATH- Knights for a reason after all. The chance that so many would be made one and still be alive is slim as is, to survive up until the time the death knights became free however? Even rarer.

Alot of people also seem to use death knights as a excuse to make a 'Black slate' character in whatever race they wish, hiding behind the excuse of "They're a Death Knight, they don't follow their races norms anymore."


TLDR :: Players need to be educated more on Death Knights, rather than punishing them for minor ignorance with something extreme as stopping them playing their class. I think there should also be a guide that says how each race would react to being a death knight...and some pointers for each that should be rammed into peoples heads (Bad elitist Avitz).