Conquest of the Horde

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Alright, this has been a point of debate amongst the GMs for a good week or so now. However, we've finally reached a consensus on the question:

Since a Mage can wield Frost and Fire, can he use any other elements?

To answer, in simplest terms, they can. To an extent.

The GM team bounced the idea back and forth for a time but we eventually settled on this explanation:

(11-27-2011, 09:38 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]My understanding of Mages vs. Shamans was that Shamans manipulate the elements with the spirits help, while Mages use the arcane to manipulate forms of *energy*. Fire is a form of energy, as is arcane magic. Frost is done by drawing heat away and causing the water naturally in the air to condense and solidify, just in a really rapid process. Granted, a lot of this is just a guess, but it fits with their whole "theme" and what their spells do. This would make "hydromancy" possible for the same reason frost magic is possible, same with using lightning as it's just a form of energy.

Based on this logic a Mage can wield spells that deal with Water and Electricity. Those are allowed.

However, Mages who wield Earth, Wind or any other such state of matter are not allowed. Keep Shaman magic to the Shaman.

The mage would need to channel energy and use it to exert his/her will on nature. Think along the lines of telekinesis: A person would need to use their mind to move each single grain of sand or lift a boulder, which requires too much concentration and energy to be combat effective or, in some cases, even possible.

Also, another point for clarification: Unlike the shaman, a mage can only summon these energies, not manipulate them.

(11-27-2011, 05:16 PM)Xigo Wrote: [ -> ]A mage can not 'control' ice, he attacks with it and summons it. The same for fire, arcane, lightning, and water.

He might be able to send a crushing wave at someone, but he can not manipulate natural water by such means.

Anyway, I hope that clarifies a few points on this topic. I know the question has come up recently and we wanted to shed a bit of light on it.

We encourage people to use our Private Forum to post ideas and questions as well. If you want to do something with a character or explore the possibility of a variant class, make the idea known and we'll be happy to work with you!






But...don't...mages outright enslave elemental spirits?

Color me confused.
Mages summon two elementals, water elementals, and the blood mages have been told to be able to summon phoenixes, which in itself comes from the realm of fire.

Both are sentient, and very much have the ability turn on their owner. So it's most likely some sort of contract.
Or it's done by arcane binding in a fashion similar to how demons are bound to warlocks.
So Mages literally -create- something from nothing rather than manipulate existing things into something else?

I had always thought that Mages generally abide by the law that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another. It feels queer that they can create or summon energy entirely from nothing instead of manipulating or changing existing energy to a form in which they prefer.

I mean, Grakor's quote suggests that what Mages do are entirely manipulative rather than any form of summoning. There is water present in the air, and they draw the heat away rapidly for it to become ice, and turn this Heat Energy into Kinetic Energy to hurtle the bolt of Frost at the enemy. In this process, no new Energy is created (Which is impossible). This doesn't seem to be any form of summoning whatsoever, but entirely the manipulation of something that already exists, changing it from one form to another, and then conducting it along a preferred outcome.

While he does not -control- it, he -manipulates- it with a set of scientific and magical laws and methodologies taught to him. While he might not be able to -ASK- the wave of crushing water to stop, he can probably do the same thing as frost and rapidly draw the heat from the wave of crushing water into delocalized Heat Energy before changing this Heat Energy to Kinetic Energy to stop the Crushing Wave in its tracks, probably into a shower of ice crystals. He can probably redirect it with years of control by using the Kinetic Energy to change the course.

I find the contradiction between Grakor's quote and Rosencrat's/Xigo's words to be confusing. In Grakor's example, it is purely the manipulation of energy, nothing is created, nothing is summoned, and nothing appears from thin air. Mages are not Gods. In Rosencrat's words, Mages cannot manipulate energy, but must summon them.

Playing a Mage as my main and thus far, only, character, I find a need for clarification in this. Also, in Grakor's terms; if someone summons a Water Elemental at me, I can conceivably draw out the heat from it rapidly to turn it to ice before using the heat energy to send this new Ice Elemental flying back at its summoner, aye?
What's the difference between "manipulating" energy and "summoning" it?
(11-28-2011, 03:16 AM)Holynexus Wrote: [ -> ]What's the difference between "manipulating" energy and "summoning" it?

My understanding is that you can create fire/water/lightning/frost/arcane from thin air, but you cannot take any of these things and turn them into giant elemental monsters/weapons/airplanes.

They summon fire and throw it at the enemy. In a different form, either in a flamethrower-esque fashion or a bolt. But I suppose, you can let your imagination control how it goes, as long as you don't manipulate it. I could be wrong, though.
(11-28-2011, 03:16 AM)Holynexus Wrote: [ -> ]What's the difference between "manipulating" energy and "summoning" it?

Mass is not created nor destroyed. Of course, the law of the conservation of mass doesn't really apply well in this universe, but fire is superheating the air controlled and water/ice is causing the air to freeze, as well as lightning is simply charged atoms.

But then what is to say about Geomancers? I would say that's a sort of shaman variant... except you see night elves and dwarves using it in Searing Gorge.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=5862#screenshots

Of course, I suspect there is more to magic than the game mechanics let on, but that's a whole another discussion topic.
(11-28-2011, 03:16 AM)Holynexus Wrote: [ -> ]What's the difference between "manipulating" energy and "summoning" it?

I think the thing is we can't control something if it's already there as a mage, but you can conjure it as a spell. I'm guessing it's like saying you can't go to a pond and magically make the water rise up in a geyser and hit someone, but you could magic up a ball of water and throw it at them.

I'm not sure what difference it is other than that it may be multiclassing to "control" elements rather than just "toss" them around as a spell.
To manipulate is to force. To summon is to call forth. Shamans work WITH elemental forces almost like partners, mages use arcane energy to make things happen.
It doesn't help at all, really. Like Rob said. Mages force, so why can mages not force air or earth?
To be fair, the only in game earth and air spells a mage has are tied into their fire and frost spells. Cone of Cold comes to mind.
Waitasecond: Those two quotes are conflicting entirely.

edit:

http://www.wowpedia.org/Elementalist
"The elementalist — often [most of the time, not always] a Twilight's Hammer cultist — is an arcanist who specializes in several specific elements of his choice (acid, cold, etc.)."

Example of the Elementalist.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Corrupted_Elementalist
"Corrupted [meaning that they were once Non-corrupted Elementalists] Elementalists are corrupted dragonspawn, elven and gnome elementalists in the service of Twilight's Hammer."
Spells and abilities:
              Earth Shield — Protects the target with an earthen shield, causing melee attacks to heal the shielded target. This effect can only occur once every few seconds. 10 charges. Lasts 2 min.
              Fire Blast — Inflicts Fire damage to an enemy.
              Frost Shock — Inflicts Frost damage to an enemy and reduces its movement speed for 6 sec.
              Molten Armor — Causes Fire damage when hit, increases your chance to critically hit with spells by 3%, and reduces the chance you are critically hit by 5%.
              Twilight Fireball — Inflicts Fire damage to an enemy.
              Wind Shear — Inflicts 18 to 20 Nature damage, interrupting casting for 3 sec. "

Geomancer is a misleading term, as this are not geomancers but elementalists.
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