When Kretol released CotH to the public and set our sights as being a haven for WoW RP, we had several goals in mind at the time. However, when it comes down to it, I think our goals can be described in three parts:
1. To create a haven for RPers who can get away from the Live-level of hostility and immersion-breaking.
2. To create a world as faithful as possible to WoW's lore.
3. To take that a step further, and allow players and GMs to take that lore to the next level and do things they could not do on Live.
I know that in our past of trying to fulfill these goals, we've not always hit the mark. I'm saying this as a personal message, as I've had little to do with the ideas for the following changes you'll see below, beyond I'm now implementing them, but they're ideas I agree with. I say this because I've seen the problems myself even in my inactivity. I know we've been called too harsh. I know the server is filled with elitism, not just for the server as a whole to those outside, but tiers of elitism *within* the server as well. Keep this in mind as you read below.
The GMs have been talking for a while, so a number of changes are coming in. Alongside the Tides of Change which Mikain has been working on for the RP-side of the server, we'll also be working on how things work here behind the scenes on the forums. The first will be changes to our Hero and Grunt systems.
First, Heroes. The Hero group is no longer going to exist, at all. Unfortunately, the Hero system didn't work to our expectations. It led to more elitism and resentment within the server, and that's pretty much the last thing we needed. At the same time, there really wasn't much point to the rank beyond the cyan name, so we'll be eliminating the group completely.
Now for Grunts. The vouch system is going to get annihilated completely as well. Vouching as a system worked at first, but ended up not working out as we had hoped. Grunts, however, will still exist...at the moment, we are going to continue working out the details of the new Grunt system, but the idea for now is that most likely it will be time-locked. When you've been on the server long enough, probably around two months, you'll be able to fill out a little questionnaire and become a Grunt that way.
I'll be announcing more changes, as well as the finalized ideas for how obtaining the Grunt title will be determined, as more information comes in.
I can honestly say, as a long time veteran, this is some of the BEST news I've seen come out. I've always been a critic (sometimes an unfair one) of the whole hero's / vouching system, and I'm so extremely happy to see them get dismantled in a timely fashion. I believe this will tone down on the OOC drama by a TON and stop the Roman Senate style double-faced resentment that had always sprung up between different groups of people at different times.
As a community, we need to feel connected and significant. We need to make everyone feel as if they're an important part of the world, otherwise all the "epic" (Faction conflict-based plots) storylines will never come into fruition because we simply won't have enough people willing or able to participate due to the friction of status envy.
Bravo, COTH. This is a good step in the right direction.
I agree too, but 2 months for gruntship seems a little too long to me ,the timeframe for that could be reconsidered.
I like the ridding of the heroes system. I really didn't see the point of it.
But vouching gone? Much love. This hopefully means that no longer will peons only RP with 80s, that the impatient people will be weeded out... I see a few cons as well, but the pros outshine them.
I didn't even know what Heros were for but I guess I don't have to worry about that now. I hope good will come out of this- most likely it will. And two months sounds decent for the Peon to Grunt system. Huzzah~
shane Wrote:I agree too, but 2 months for gruntship seems a little too long to me ,the timeframe for that could be reconsidered.
The number isn't set in stone, and I feel fairly confident in saying that if that number goes anywhere, it'll be going down. We're still discussing the exact procedure, but the main thing that we're going for is just long enough to prevent us from expending resources on the PvE crowd or the folks that step in for a short time and then step out. Two months is the high estimate, one month is the low.
While I'm responding here, I'll also state that these are just the first steps. For my part, I'll be trying to see things worked on as far as the rules and forums go, trying to make things a little less elitist, a little more relaxed, while still meeting the goals I outlined in the first post. I do have things planned.
I'll be honest, my opinion on this may be a little biased as I was vouched into gruntship shortly before this happened (and am, in fact, the newest grunt). I'm not here to say "hurr, I got promoted just in time didn't I?"; I actually have an opinion. But with that out of the way, I totally approve of this change and would gladly throw up my 'official' status and level 80 if it meant better RP quality all around. I may not be able to say I've been here forever or anything, but I'd love to see dedication to this server from everyone with their name on the list.
I'm not familiar with the status and drama in these parts, but I do know that in the past RP-places I've been on dedication is the single most important thing. Most RPs I've seen have fallen through because people suddenly lose interest in what's going on or their characters and just leave the whole place a ghost town, as a lot of new players to the server do, I'm sure. If you have them stick it out for two months it proves they're really determined to stay, instead of sucking up to a few level 80s and calling it a day.
I do take issue with the timeframe you've presented, though, because two months is a fairly long time to most players looking to join. Some could be very good RPers and great people OOCly, but they may be tempted to join other servers (note: I don't know if there /are/ other servers) or just stick to retail if it's too hard to get in. I suggest a time of approximately one month; it's long enough that most people who don't care enough to dedicate themselves will be weeded out.
I didn't really like what I saw of the vouching system. In theory, it was fine, but I was rather surprised to be receiving vouches on my /first/ RP with someone. Yes, I grasped the rules of grammar and OOC etiquitte. But how would you know I was going to even bother logging on the very next day? It worried me about the server at first, but I kept on regardless and am still pleased with the devotion most people hold to. I'm only worried about the mass of peons that I managed to struggle out of that still want their level 80s and how they'll take this. I, personally, love it because it will hopefully result in "RP for all" and "update the wiki." Yeah? Great going, GM team. Glad to see it happen, regardless of where I am on the ranks.
Just my two cents,
Moose
Conquest of the Horde v2.2 Patch Notes:
*We have eliminated the vouch grind for all players. This means that you no longer have to grind player rep in order to receive 3x [Vouch]; as we have removed them entirely.
*The Grunt class has been completely redone. As a result, all talent points have been refunded.
*The Hero class, due to overall uselessness, has been eliminated. If you were one of the four people to be this class, please have this [Consolation Prize].
*Shamans still rule.
I'm for this, though. While effective at first, the vouching system served as a moniker to award those whom were truly epic roleplayers. The vouching system, at its time; bred a wealth of false sincerity. A lot of new players especially, would "befriend" Grunts under false pretenses, with the ulterior motive of getting vouches, solely circumventing the system altogether. We've all been targeted by Peons that will beeline for anyone that is 80; when there is perfectly good roleplay happening with other Peons nearby. It's rather insulting when people flock to you, or bypass you; not because of the depth of your roleplay, but because of that little number beside your portrait. It's counterproductive to the very purpose that the server exists for, to begin with.
Though I could see a sense of betterment happening in a way. "Why, back in my day, we had to get these here vouches. We also had to walk three feet in snow, uphill, in bare feet! Twice a day!"
Time for a short sentence.
I support this cause.
Weeeeeeeell.... Shizzle.
I don't think this will make non-existant drama any better. I honestly never minded elitism. Grunts are cool people, peons who act like grunts are just as cool, and should be vouched for. Easy as friggin' that.
A questionairre I am /not/ for. This would mean that a non-RPer with decent knowledge could fill it in and become a grunt. Then there are people that make sense OOC, but IC, they can be so dumb. "[name] calls forth her mount!" "[name] whistles and the pet comes running towards him. He tells the pet to charge at Marr. [Pet] charges at Marr and jumps on his back, making Marr fall over and fall down the edge." OOC, this contains decent grammar and what not. But IC, this contains powergaming/godmoding.
I know it's hard to think up something, but really, I see more downsides that pluses. And I hope people agree with me.
Rubykuby Wrote:A questionairre I am /not/ for. This would mean that a non-RPer with decent knowledge could fill it in and become a grunt.
It would never be that simple. Not only that, but the GMs would also weigh in with their opinions of how the character acts OOC and IC.
If that is true, we would need "testers". Grunts that check these applications. Otherwise, GMs would be even bussier than they already were.
Not really we have more GM's then ever and we actually have less to do now with the Intro's how there are.
Rubykuby Wrote:I don't think this will make non-existant drama any better. I honestly never minded elitism. Grunts are cool people, peons who act like grunts are just as cool, and should be vouched for. Easy as friggin' that.
Grunts are not "cool people." Grunts are not special. Grunts are nothing more than people who have had three other people go "Ehh, they're okay." Nothing more.
I hate to be that blunt about it, but that's what this basically boils down to, and this is the type of attitude I'm personally hoping to combat. You make it sound like vouches are any better at screening out god-moders, when they aren't. People have noted being vouched for on the first RP, hardly enough time to get a good judge of a player's RP abilities, especially in combat which tends to bring out the worst in people. In fact, it's even more ironic because in my short time on the server the past two days, I've already heard complaints about grunts god-moding.
Unless someone god-modes non-stop in every RP he/she is in. In which case it doesn't matter, that person won't last the one to two months necessary to be a grunt anyway.
We're not using the grunt system to sort the "cool people." We're doing it to know who's been around long enough to believe they're dedicated to the server and to RP, thus not a waste of time to give items and levels to (opposed to PvE crowds or folks that will take the items and be gone in a day.)
Two words; about time!
Although stripping of the vouch system (which never really worked in the first place. what with people handing friends vouches nethertheless and ending up with more ungrunty grunts) t'is a wonderful idea too, a questionaire doesn't really sound like an improvement on it. Although I'm gonna admit I can't think of anything better to suggest.
EDIT: And on the whole drama issue; no matter what we use, there will -always- be drama on this server, being both an Rp server and an internet community as a whole. To be honest even if we did come up with some awesome way of making peons into grunts whilst seiving out the players we don't need/want; there will still be people stirring stuff, calling names, backstabbing, ragequitting and so on and so forth - that just comes with being human.
Just gotta hope that people we don't want don't slip past whatever we get next.