The voidness of the concept of evil..ness

[Shane]

So, this post is about the correctness of using the word evil to describe things in-game as well as in general.

I keep hearing people say that their character is evil or they want to start an evil guild and do evil stuff,I use it a lot myself. Guess we could do with some discussion on its exact nature.

Here's what a dictionary says:- "a force that causes bad things to happen; morally bad behaviour"

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In my opinion what the concept of being evil is something that is confined to philosophy and religion, something that is entirely subjective and thus based on an individual's perspective.

Usually what consider to be evil can come under three categories:-

1) The Criminal- The criminal is someone who does things that may be considered morally incorrect for personal gain, he/she may also indulge in such activities for the purpose of enjoyment.

Such a person fails to empathize with his victims and consider the negative consequences of his actions on his surroundings. The criminal is indifferent and neglectful towards others (excludes people such as relatives, love interests, etc) Warlocks come under this category too.

Example:- Due to my negligible lore knowledge, I'll use one of characters as one, Seu.

Seu is someone who doesn't enjoy harming others though he may do so if he has something to gain from it.

Before the restart, he was a criminal and had an ongoing enmity with the Darkspears (he is a Shatterspear) which resulted from his fight and subsequent defeat at the hands of a village elder. His desire to exact revenge made him start a feud among one of the orc clans and the Darkspears as well as among the Darkspears themselves.

Why he is evil:- What makes Seu evil is essentially the fact that he was willing to have innocents pay the price to exact his vengeance from one person. Also, he not only exploited the orcs' trust in him but got them into a fight with the Darkspears too. His willingness to side with anyone to achieve his goals, including Zalazane(don't ask) and the Sin'sholai is another reason.

Why he isn't evil:- Whether it was for gold or revenge, he didn't necessarily take the evil path but one that was the easiest to walk on. The reason others may consider him evil is because he was willing to put innocents in harm's way. Seu has committed a lot of crimes because of the his disregard for the lives of other as well as that his own. For him a single individual's life was insignificant compared to his vengeance.

Think of it like this:- A game hunter goes and kills all sorts of animals for the purpose of enjoyment, he does this because he doesn't consider the lives of the game he kills as significant (subjectively speaking). Of course, a PETA guy would consider this act cruel and hedonistic in nature.

A similar analogy could be used for religious extremists.

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The psycho This is the guy who embraces the concept of evil because of the fact that he thinks it may be the "right" thing. Someone who pleasures himself by committing immoral acts. The criminally insane (insanity again being subjective) fall in this category.

Example:- Sargeras. Also, the scarlet crusade.

A titan who believes that the destroying the world and rebuilding it as he saw fit.

To quote WoWwiki:-

Convinced that the titans' ordering of the universe was unnatural and ultimately responsible for the corrupted nature of the demons, Sargeras decided to undo the work of the titans throughout the universe. The only way that he could correct their mistakes was to destroy all of the worlds that the titans had shaped and brought order to so long ago.

Why he is evil:- Doesn't need much explaining he pretty much wants to destroy all life on Azeroth and then make the everyone in the reborn world his b***h.

Why he is not evil:- To me this is comparable to what God did with the Great Flood as is said in the Bible. The intentions in both cases being to rid the world of the corruption and evil. In Sargeras' case, he believes that shaping the world into what the world believes as "evil" is actually the right way to go. That is to say that in Sargeras' opinion the races of Azeroth have been manipulated and crafted by the Titans into something that he thinks believes is actually wrong.

Think of it like this:- As beings created by the Titans are the races of Azeroth qualified to say whether they (the races) are evil or not and deserve to be annihilated?
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On reaching the end, I realized that there wasn't any particular need to make this an issue of debate. Epic waste of time /sigh

Anyway, I'm gonna still post this up to give you folks some food for thought.

[Piroska]

I think it's important to realize that most people do not believe that their actions are evil. They believe that they are in the right, even though others may see them as being reprehensible.

Typically, the ones who believe that they are evil are the ones who are inherently good! They may feel forced to do something that they personally feel is wrong and, due to their own prescribed moral compass, they feel that their actions are evil. They often feel remorse for their actions or even concern that their actions may be revealed to others.

[Binkleheimer]

Remember, a good villian never says he is a villian or evil.

[Shane]

Remember, a good villian never says he is a villian or evil.

I'd say a villain does he not believe that he is a bad guy and technically no one is.

[Mayson]

Remember, a good villian never says he is a villian or evil.

I'd say a villain does he not believe that he is a bad guy and technically no one is.

I think, the word 'evil' is simply often used to make the role of the character clear. In character there aren't many, who actually really say that they are evil, unless they are joke characters or give an ironical answer to the typical "Why do would you do that???"-questions.

[Miah]

What about those evil people who have a stance of. "I just don't give a damn. I do what I like" They likely know they are evil, they just dont really care.

[Piroska]

Well, fortunately, the vast majority of people do not feel that way. Most people feel something if they knowingly do something that would be considered wrong, such as breaking a law or some sort of social code. An apparent lack of remorse or empathy for others is actually a sign of antisocial personality disorder -- essentially, sociopaths. Fortunately, a relatively small percentage of people actually have this; it's around 2-3%.

[Seraphim]

What about those evil people who have a stance of. "I just don't give a damn. I do what I like" They likely know they are evil, they just dont really care.

*Cough*

In addition to what Piroska said, I think this can also be tacked up to simply having a different view of the world than the average person. A normal, well-adjusted way to think is that society, as a whole, is good, and that being selfless leads to positive change.

Someone who says, "Well, the world hasn't done anything for me, and I've had to struggle for everything I have, so why should I help anyone else?" isn't necessarily a sociopath. They're reacting to life in a way that's different from the norm, but that doesn't mean they have a disorder, so to speak.

Another example would be from a second character of mine, who takes it a step further: 'Life is mostly suffering and adversity, with brief moments of contentment. Better to end it all permanently, so that there will be no more pain to endure.' It's a different way of viewing the world, but isn't sociopathic, per se. He acknowledges that people suffer and that it's a bad thing. He's evil because his solution completely ignores the sanctity of life, which is a fairly universal moral concept.

But then, I suppose that's just an example of someone being evil and not thinking that they are. Hm.

Evil is complicated. That's part of what makes it so much fun to experiment with.

[Kaghuros]

What about those evil people who have a stance of. "I just don't give a damn. I do what I like" They likely know they are evil, they just dont really care.

In the tabletop RPG community, we have a term for characters like this: Chaotic Stupid

[Miah]

The archetype of someone selfish enough to just do what works best for them and not others isn't really stupid is it?

[Kaghuros]

Chaotic Evil doesn't mean "Watevuh watevuh ah do what ah want!" it means you're amoral or insane. Chaotic Neutral doesn't mean "random" it means you generally do things for your own benefit regardless of legality. Generally, people misuse the alignments to portray characters who indiscriminately murder, rape, and kill with no reason or rhyme besides the player's OOC desire to mess with people, or who do stupid and inane things because it's hilarious to them. Even the most insane serial killers and psychopaths are driven by something, no matter how bizarre the connection they make might be.

[Miah]

I was just on about selfishness. Desire to fulfill ones own needs without reguard for others. Diddnt mention chaotic neutral or crazy do what you want all the time characters :S

[Anski]

I wouldn't call the second example 'The Psycho' more of 'The Zealot'

[Binkleheimer]

What about those evil people who have a stance of. "I just don't give a damn. I do what I like" They likely know they are evil, they just dont really care.

In the tabletop RPG community, we have a term for characters like this: Chaotic Stupid

Not really. Chaotic stupid is the badly played Chaotic Neutral character. The kind that goes and does random things, fur teh lulz!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... oticStupid

What you might be thinking of is this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidEvil

Stupid evil is those that just do bad things to -prove- they are evil, like kicking a dog, fur teh evulz!

[Shane]

What about those evil people who have a stance of. "I just don't give a damn. I do what I like" They likely know they are evil, they just dont really care.

I disagree, such a person wouldn't necessarily think they are evil, but rather acknowledge the fact that what they indulge in is morally unacceptable. Duke Nukem comes to mind.