Some Notes Regarding Variants/Prestiges

[Piken]

Ah, thank you for the clarification, Grak!

And very good explanations! I agree with Aph's words(assuming I understood them correctly) in that a character doesn't NEED to be a certain class for something, but some are more likely than others, etc.

Anywho. Yes, apologies if I came off as anything but simply curious. Again, thank you for the clarification, I understand much more now. ^.^

[Harmonic]

I'm going to drag away from this, that now I think it'd be awesome to have a character that goes all muscle bound Mr. Universe as a bone crusher. Even if you can't grow in height, getting muscular and all Arnold like sounds like an adventure all of itself.

Pawmp you awp and leetle mahn references abound!

And, as my own thoughts here, I think a little of each side is needed. Fanon can be fine, if handled neatly, and done in a reasonable manner... but same with following things to the letter. Honestly, I wouldn't know jack about the D20 stuff if it wasn't for you guys on the forums talking about it, just because it's something that isn't common knowledge, at least not in your typical WoW sense.

It leads me to believe I did gladiator all sorts of wrong, but really I did that as I percieved the class to be like from what little I had to go on. I dunno, double edged sword and whatnot.

[Piroska]

When it comes to character concepts and their places in a universe, I tend to be right smack in the middle: I like having concrete ideas in the world but also the flexibility to pursue my own ideas and perceptions of these concepts.

This is why I really dislike the idea of class. A rogue is not a rogue. A warrior is not a warrior. In some cases, a priest may not even be a priest (depending on which race and how that base concept is applied). Very few classes actually specifically define what a character is (paladins come to mind, but that's due to the very specific roles that they play and the limited organizations in which they belong). By approaching a character in terms of class, you pigeonhole that character and what he can do.

This seems to invariably lead to players attempting to mix-max their characters, which I feel often detracts from the universal goal: roleplay. This was particularly common when the prestige system still existed; these variations on character archetypes were often considered ways to make characters stronger rather than an impetus for roleplay.

I sometimes feel that players' efforts limit roleplay more than the environment in which we roleplay.


Edit: This is why I shouldn't type and work on the wiki at the same time. Speeeeeeeling errors corrected.

[Duraza]

The reasons you pick a class in D&D (or d20 or whatever..) and the reasons a Character in RP chooses to progress to a certain thing aren't equivalent.

In D&D you wouldn't mix Priest and Shadow Ascendant for all the reasons already stated. The two classes have nothing to gain from one another. It wouldn't make sense for the player to do so from the outside.

But from an RP stance, Shadow Ascendants are of powerful cultural significance to the race. The abilities gained wouldn't necessarily have to do with it. Any class might choose the path because its a question of faith and pursuit of religion.

Like, I understand what's being said. SAs shouldn't have been treated as super casters because D&D wise they are balanced hybrids. The same thing with Felsworn becoming super casters instead of remaining on the warrior side. However, from an RP standpoint it also isn't correct to say 'priests shouldn't have been becoming SAs. Warlocks shouldn't have been becoming Felsworn.' There isn't a direct answer but rather a need for flexibility in different situations.

[Grakor456]

This is why I really dislike the idea of class. A rogue is not a rogue. A warrior is not a warrior. In some cases, a priest may not even be a priest (depending on which race and how that base concept is applied). Very few classes actually specifically define what a character is (paladins come to mind, but that's due to the very specific roles that they play and the limited organizations in which they belong). By approaching a character in terms of class, you pigeonhole that character and what he can do.

Personally speaking, I like the idea of using classes ICly. Sure, it can seem a bit confining and puts people into ten rough definitions, but sometimes that's exactly what you need to happen. Knowing, for example, what the differences are between the types of magic and what they can respectively accomplish is a very nice thing to have and minimizes complaints about powers being pulled from thin air.

Certain flexibility is nice, but I like the guidelines put in place by the mechanics...up to a point. You have to be familiar with the guidelines and the mechanics so that you know when it's okay to deviate from them and how not cause a fuss.

Like, I understand what's being said. SAs shouldn't have been treated as super casters because D&D wise they are balanced hybrids. The same thing with Felsworn becoming super casters instead of remaining on the warrior side. However, from an RP standpoint it also isn't correct to say 'priests shouldn't have been becoming SAs. Warlocks shouldn't have been becoming Felsworn.' There isn't a direct answer but rather a need for flexibility in different situations.

Pretty much. If the Felsworn/Ascendants had been RPed closer to their source material, I probably wouldn't be so grouchy about it.

[Piroska]

Pretty much. If the Felsworn/Ascendants had been RPed closer to their source material, I probably wouldn't be so grouchy about it.

You, grouchy? Can't see it! ♥

[Harmonic]

Classes also keep people from Min Maxing, a word that seldom comes up here. Min maxing is when you use the minimal ammount of "Talent points" so to speak, to get the maximum ammount of perfection out of a character. In RP terms, this translates to Mary Sue. Without the restrictions of class, you get people... expirementing.

The warrior who can cast magic. The rogue who can summon. Eventually, someone will take it a step father, and add in more. Or pick a talent from here.. and add it there. Then a talent here, and add it there. And it will be totally justifyable, because there's no limitation of class, therefor making it perfectly reasonable for a person to know all this... garbage.

A perfect scenario... is me! My first character in my buddie's World of Darkness game. I had "strategically" made it so that I'd spend my points in talents, which my buddy at the time was okay with... soon, I had a guy that could drive like Mario Andretti, could fight like Chuck, had three weapon proficiencies, was multi-lingual, was dead handsome, and could lie to his own mother and get away with it every time.

When you remove the "Restrictions", you open up the floodgate RP wise. In this community, that is -not- what you want. If we were playing Space Station 13, I'd say "OH YES PLEASE", but we are not, so I'm going to put down my gib launcher.


Does this make sense?

[Kaghuros]

I like that you mentioned WoD (original WoD right?) because the cheese is as strong there as it is in unrestricted RP. People give their characters "flaws" (a little background: flaws in World of Darkness give you extra starting exp to put somewhere else in exchange for a disability) that don't actually end up hurting them in order to get away with a more powerful character. Kind of how I feel about what people do in resurrection posts actually, but that's neither here nor there.

[Harmonic]

Hey, I had a blind Werewolf. That was pretty hard. His deed name was "Can't-See-Shit" instead of Runs-with-bull or something like that.

Good times.

And yes! That's why I specifically mentioned it, heh. Unrestricted RP looks like... well, it can look like a mess. In -most- cases it still ends up being a load of fun, however in a place where there are rules and a high level of lore adherence... well, it just wouldn't meld well here, and that's why you need classes. Without something to define your character, you get a mish-mash amalgam of talents that don't really define who you are, and because of that you keep aquiring crap to aid you on your trip to be the bestest mage-knight-dragonslayer-death-demon-summoning-morphing-power-ranger-archer-hunter-cook-robot-elf-dwarf-human-cowman that ever lived. Sure, not that drastic, but... it'd get there soon.

That's it, I'm using a retcon token and going back to farmer.