Diablo III: Game and Class Discussion

[Piroska]

I checked around and didn't find any recent threads specifically regarding the game, its mechanics, and such.

Boyfriend foisted a copy of the game on me recently and I decided to explore it between projects, job-hunting, community service, and the like. I only played the original Diablo game extensively in the past (only dabbled with Diablo II), so a lot of changes implemented in the second game that people take for granted are still mostly new to me!

I haven't played much of the game -- at least, if you agree with everyone else who claims that the game starts at Inferno. Prior to getting my own account of the game, I managed to clear the entirety of the original game with a frost-centric wizard. I had started Hell when I swapped over.

The wizard was fun. I've read quite a bit of feedback regarding the class and I've seen quite a few people write that the class initially starts slow. I didn't have that issue; I jumped out of the gate killing things with no problems. As noted, I was running with a Frost build that favors rooting the mobs and then blowing them up. I believe that I was using this build. It worked well for me and allowed me to easily destroy small packs quickly while acquiring that lovely massacre bonus. I hadn't had much opportunity to play with others using that character, but it would have been interesting to see how her abilities meshed with others'.

When I got my own account and started playing, boyfriend decided to do a co-op game with me. He rolled a demon hunter and I've been on a witch doctor. The toons are intended only to be played together, so there's no need for soloing and kiting builds currently. That said, I found witch doctor to be slow, tedious, and initially ineffective. You get all of these really fun, really class definitive abilities early on in the game (the ability to summon demon dogs, fiery bats, throwing spiders and toads at people), but they were all crap compared to my demon hunter companion. In fact, I was so ineffective for a while that the demon hunter managed to level prior to me due to repeated massacre bonuses.

Fortunately, this is a Blizzard game and a lot of people within the community love theorycrafting (myself included). I went to the forums and examined their efforts. Using their results, I swapped around my build and changed my stat priority. I do damage now and more utility, which is awesome. I especially like my gargantuan, who has affectionately acquired the name Chunk. However, I feel like the class has suddenly become more boring. I don't use spiders, demon puppies, bats or anything that would seem like an iconic symbol of the class. I shoot darts, whee!

Last night I rolled a warrior barbarian, which I've found is the antithesis of the witch doctor class. The barbarian starts out swinging and has yet to have a lull. The class is incredibly self-sustaining, which is good since it's often in the midst of the melee. I haven't gotten far on that character (1-3, perhaps?) but I think that it'll be a good release when I want to feel like I'm doing more than shooting darts.

I've yet to explore the demon hunter or monk, but I'll probably get around to that at some point. Also, I'm planning on attempting a hardcore character (probably a warrior due to the ease of play) at some point.

Anyone else playing and have thoughts on the gameplay? I know that there has been some recent outpouring regarding other aspects of the game, but I'd like to read more about how the community plays and what it thinks. I would also be interested in potentially playing with others; most of my cooperative games to date have been with the significant other.

[Cressy]

I've been playing monk and I really enjoy it. :3

I'll post more when I get on my computer.

[Rowgen]

Been enjoying Barbarian and Witch Doctor, really. :3

[Roxas65]

I'm mostly playing Wizard with electrocute, disintegrate, mirror image, wave of force, hydra and frost armor and it's really, really effective. I'm in hell mode with her and I'm still waltzing through enemies like they're nothing.

Similar to your Witch Doctor, I also rolled a Demo Hunter intended to be played only with a friend. I built her in what I found to be maximum mobility. Evasive fire as primary, rapid fire, vault, fan of knives, smoke screen and shadow power. She is such a freaking glass cannon, but she's very quick and agile.

[Krilari]

Avon and I can confirm that the witch doctor is stupidly squishy. In other news, Barbarians kick ass.

[Grakor456]

If you believe the general opinion of the masses on the Blizzard forums, Barbarians and Monks drop sharply in effectiveness towards Inferno.

Now I'm going to comment on this, though with two caveats to understand where I'm coming from. First, I don't actually own this game (at least, not yet.) I played a guest pass version up to the first boss, tried all five classes up to the Skeleton King, and was done.

Second...I hated Diablo, and really disliked Diablo 2. The Diablo series and I are somewhat at odds since I tend to find that it's a series that actively discourages active thought and trains its players to just mindlessly click things to death. (I mean, really, only two skill buttons?) There's another major gripe I have with the series...which I'll get to later.

I can at least say that Diablo 3 is better than Diablo 2. More skills can be equipped at a time and the game doesn't discourage experimentation with abilities, so that's good. It's a bit less mindless than its predecessors (not that there's necessarily anything wrong with mindless entertainment, I just found Diablo 2 to be TOO mindless. I do not joke when I say that Diablo 2 is the only game I've ever played that has actually managed to put me to sleep with how boring I found it.) So, in that sense, Diablo 3 is a much superior game.

On the other hand...the one big hurdle I have with this series is the loot system. I know a lot of folks cite the endless, randomized loot as a positive, but for me it's a HUGE negative that I have to work around if I want to enjoy the game. Loot is inherently the least interesting way of improving a character, and having to sort through countless piles of garbage magic items for something that might be an upgrade doesn't sound fun to me, it sounds like a chore. It doesn't help that they added crafting...and then made that, too, completely random in its results.

As far as the class list goes...I can't comment balance without playing further into the game. I will say that it feels like the game is...missing a class, like it really needed one more. That there are three ranged but only two melee classes might feed into this, as well as there being only one strength-based class while there are two dexterity and intelligence classes, respectively.

[Roxas65]

But the loot system is, honestly, one of the reasons Diablo is so popular. Why? Because it speaks to the collector instinct in every living human being. You always want more and you always want better. I'm not saying this is a good thing, in fact I agree with you, but that's really what it all comes down to.

I also hadn't considered the last thing you said, but now that you mention it, you're correct. It Does feel like a class is missing. CAN YOU SAY EXPANSION!?

Personally, I play it for those encounters where you have to balance causing damage and avoiding blows to not get instantly killed. This really comes into play on higher difficulties and boss battles.

[Rowgen]

Probably Paladin, I daresay. Maybe Angel, if I know Blizzard right.

[Ebenezer]

Second...I hated Diablo, and really disliked Diablo 2. The Diablo series and I are somewhat at odds since I tend to find that it's a series that actively discourages active thought and trains its players to just mindlessly click things to death. (I mean, really, only two skill buttons?)

Tip: You can set skills to the f(x) keys to access them quickly, and then you may scroll through them with the mouse wheel. For instance as a barbarian, you might have Bash on f1, Stun on f2 and the shouts on f3-f5.
But yeah, there's a lot of clicking.

[Grakor456]

But the loot system is, honestly, one of the reasons Diablo is so popular. Why? Because it speaks to the collector instinct in every living human being. You always want more and you always want better.

I must be the only person on the planet to not have this instinct, because the loot system never seemed fun or interesting to me. I always just found it irritating. The loot system is always touted as something that adds the game and makes it so much fun, so I always wonder just what it is that I'm missing, because to me I always mentally categorized this as a short-coming rather than a feature.

I suppose a lot of it comes down to my hatred of systems that have character effectiveness determined primarily by the random number generator. If I played single player Diablo 2 and I didn't get the gear necessary to make my character work for Nightmare/Hell, I was just SOL. Multiplayer required a lot of trolling chat for trades, which I didn't find fun either. I understand that there's now an auction house thing in D3...but that feels like a band-aid rather than an actual fix.

I dunno, I just feel like the odd man out. Everyone is supposed to find this fun, and I'm staring at them trying to figure out what they see in it.

As for the sixth class...paladin seems unlikely to me, given the templar follower. Also, I kind of figured the monk was sort of the spiritual successor to the paladin. Honestly, the one D2 class that didn't get a D3 equivalent in some way...the druid, especially in terms of shapeshifting. I think a werewolf or something to that effect would be a fine class addition and be appropriately strength based and melee.

[Avitz]

I've been playing a demon hunter in it...I really enjoy it. Being all van-hellsing with duel crossbows.

...Duel Wielding...Crossbows.

Edit: About the whole Diablo 2 loot system, D3 neatly puts in the Auction house, which is rather decent at least, allowing you to look for items that have particular stats.

[Piroska]

So, I've entered Act 2 on my barbarian, which is presenting a few more challenges than I experienced during the first. For one, there is the introduction of flying mobs. I don't like flying mobs. In fact, they're generally ranked fairly high on my "Shit to Kill" prioritization:

1. Anything with fire;
   
2. Anything that flies;
   
3. Summoning/resurrecting mobs; and
   
4. Everything else!

This wouldn't be a problem, except that the barbarian suffers from a dearth of ranged attacks. I find that I jealously horde my Rage Fury so that I can ensure that I have enough to use Weapon Throw when needed. Unfortunately, if I go through a dry spell and my Fury drains, I'm stuck leaping into combat and then mindlessly chasing flying mobs until I can Leap again or use Weapon Throw.

I'm currently running this build. Since I'm so low (pre-20) there aren't a lot of options available to me but it's working fairly well thus far. I was using Frenzy for a bit until the large packs of mobs I was encountering encouraged me to return to Cleave. I'm also running with the Scoundrel, especially since his latter abilities seem to grant or benefit from crit-heavy toons. Holy crap, the crit! I love seeing those large yellow numbers pop up over enemies.

I'm going to do some research on the class, just for my own benefit. I learned quite a bit for the witch doctor (which stats to examine on gear, stat prioritization, spell selection) that performed that class's output, so I'm curious to see what is recommended for the barbarian.

I don't mind the loot system. I'm exceptionally happy that there's a personalized loot system; I can remember arguments over loot in the first game and I wasn't looking forward to the same sort of nonsense this time around. Furthermore, I find that the differences in loot encourages people to communicate and share more. Plus I've had two legendaries drop during cooperative games with my boyfriend and none during solo games, so I'm definitely leaning towards having more people in my games! Having multiple people also increases the likelihood of acquiring loot that benefits me. I know that my boyfriend generally gets loot more appropriate to my witch doctor, whereas I seem to get nothing of benefit.

My biggest concern with Diablo III right now is the repetitive nature of the dungeons/zones thus far. Diablo had this great randomization feature. While different levels maintained a consistent look and feel, their specific construction usually varied quite a bit -- aside for specific rooms where a boss was encountered. This made playing through the game more enjoyable, if only by a little. Having started my third or fourth toon at this point, I'm a little disappointed by the consistency of each zone. The opposite of Diablo appears to occur: the construction of the zone is consistent, but the specific event is randomized. This might be good for people attempting to do timed runs (or acquire achievements related to timed runs), but I find it reduces the replay value for me a little. Even in things just as simple as going on to the next difficulty of the game.


Edit: Just logged in, found that the most recent patch automatically enables General. Was promptly greeted with an ASCII picture of an open-mouthed emoticon and a poorly rendered penis. /leave General, proceed with grind!

[Roxas65]

I don't mind the loot system. I'm exceptionally happy that there's a personalized loot system; I can remember arguments over loot in the first game and I wasn't looking forward to the same sort of nonsense this time around. Furthermore, I find that the differences in loot encourages people to communicate and share more. Plus I've had two legendaries drop during cooperative games with my boyfriend and none during solo games, so I'm definitely leaning towards having more people in my games! Having multiple people also increases the likelihood of acquiring loot that benefits me. I know that my boyfriend generally gets loot more appropriate to my witch doctor, whereas I seem to get nothing of benefit.

Actually, I remember reading that your magic find% is shared with your team. Which is all fine and dandy until you encounter that one guy with basically zero magic find.


As for the AH, I kinda feel it broke the game a bit. At first I used crafting, then I decided to start using the AH and BAM, my DPS went up by hundreds of points. In fact, my wiz, that I have pretty much nothing but AH gear on, has usually several hundred points of DPS higher than other players of the same class that I encounter.

However, I am interested in the real money AH, as this actually has a fairly high chance of spawning what would basically be a new occupation. Just watch in year 2035 when the financial market crashes because the virtual traders, not necessarily just on D3 any more, are on strike.

[Mezrin]

I've played through to Nightmare mode on both my Witch Doctor and my Monk.

Monk, in my opinion, is far superior to the Witch Doctor, despite my personal preference of having minions do my dirty work for me. It's because Monk is so much more survivable, and harder-hitting, and more defensive, and more versatile, and can be tanky, healy, or DPS-y, depending on what the situation calls for, and is just general a lot smoother feeling to me. On the Witch Doctor, I ran around in circles screaming at the demons to please not destroy my soul as my minions chased them. Then, if I wanted to do any damage of my own, I kinda needed to charge into the center of a giant group to cast Soul Harvest so that my Intelligence sky-rockets, where I can then do sudden bursts of insane DPS for a short time. Only worked in big groups, though.

I'm probably playing the Witch Doctor wrong, but eh, he served me well as a first character.

[Piroska]

However, I am interested in the real money AH, as this actually has a fairly high chance of spawning what would basically be a new occupation.

This wouldn't necessarily be a new thing, even to the franchise. My middle brother would acquire loot in Diablo and then list the items on eBay. People would bid on the items, pay the final amount, and then he'd meet them in-game to transfer the requested items. He played casually for a couple of hours a day, but managed to earns hundreds of dollars in a fairly short period of time.

I've been looking forward to the RMAH as a way to make some spending cash on the side between job interviews and doing freelance work. It'll be beneficial and it would let me play a game and make some money. I don't expect to make a lot, but even a couple of bucks is more than I had before.

I'm probably playing the Witch Doctor wrong, but eh, he served me well as a first character.

Based off of my research and personal experience, this could be likely. Despite being a pet-centric class, the witch doctor is not the successor to the necromancer. The vast majority of the abilities within that skill-set are painfully inadequate, even at lower levels, and become increasingly impotent as you progress through the game.

In general, successful builds that I have seen for witch doctors (both initially and end-game) focus on various forms of crowd control and the ever-present, ever-boring Poison Dart ability, coupled with the Splinters skill rune. In general, you root with Grasp of the Dead, encourage your enemies to fight with one another using Mass Confusion, AoE with Acid Cloud, and lay down some firepower using the Poison Dart. A lot of early builds use the Gargantuan, but that tends to lose effectiveness late into Nightmare and definitely by Hell. I see a lot of Big Bad Voodoo or Fetish Army at that point, depending on the situation.

Heavy poison builds will also benefit from Bad Medicine, which decreases the damage done by your opponents and increases your likelihood of survival. Couple that with Acid Cloud and you've easily negated a significant portion of the damage output of the surrounding mobs. That could easily provide more benefit than Soul Harvest, which is limited to affecting only five enemies regardless of the skill rune you select.

Also, don't underestimate the power of your defensive skills (other than your demonic puppies. They're pointless, sadly!). I've had a lot of success with Spirit Walk in particular, since it allows you to quickly move out of a bad situation, regardless of what enemy barriers are in your way. Furthermore, unlike the other defensive talents, it's beneficial when your character have been rooted/slowed since it neatly bypasses those effects for its duration.

From a theorycrafting standpoint, Intellect isn't even the most important stat for the witch doctor, particularly on that makes use of Poison Dart. Both flat damage increases and attack speed modifiers rank higher than Intellect. A piece that has all three is especially valuable. In fact, the most valuable stat on a weapon is its DPS, followed by its attack speed. You'll want to favor primarily faster weapons, unless you're kiting; if you are, then slower weapons (which typically have higher damage at a single instance, rather than sustained) if favorable.

I know that I was disappointed to learn how ineffective the summoning talents were. I was looking forward to causing all sorts of mayhem with my demonic puppies, fiery bats, exploding toads, leaping spiders, and all of the other visually nifty abilities at my fingertips. Unfortunately, they all really just suck compared to other, more mundane, abilities. It took me some research on Diablo III theorycrafting to back up my suppositions and while I miss those abilities I really do enjoy feeling like I can actually do something with the class. I hope that they tweak the talents a bit to make those abilities equally viable.

Boyfriend, however, appreciates the change. I think that he was starting to develop some sort of complex every time I summoned my puppies. He would turn and frenetically release a volley of arrows at them when they appeared!