Are they really -that- good?

[requiem225]

This ever happen to you, you are in say STV and tensions between some humans and orcs are getting tense. At this point a some special character shows up be it a Night Elf Demon hunter, or an Orc Blademaster, at this point the side that does not have this character of there side starts to back off. If one person tries to stand there ground the rest of his group says something along the lines of.

"Careful, it's a X, he will kill you for sure."
X being some special class.

This is something that I hear constantly around CotH when I am RPing. What I wanna know is, are these classes really that much stronger than everyone else, or is it an IC stigma surrounding that class?

[Loxmardin]

IC stigma.

No class is inherently "stronger" than any of the others, though all the classes have certain things they're better at and specialized in. Like Demon Hunters being very good at combatting demons and fel-users and Blademasters being generally good at what they're doing, but close to nothing else.

The more focus you put into being good at certain things, the more you suffer in the areas you neglect, as it were.

So, the short answer would be "no".

[Zenethen]

I suppose it's just that the majority of player-character share the common stigmas of 'Don't mess with Demon Hunters, brah, they kill demons for a living, so you're surely like a vacation' or 'Brah, that guy is faster than my wifey in- I mean... Yeah, those guys will chop you up in seconds!' It's just the reputation that the classes have earned through what lore-figures of said class have done. It travels down the line to the guys at the bottom.

[Dae]

Not to mention, from an OOC standpoint, someone making a character with a former prestige class is probably more interested in combat than in general- and this can sometimes manifest as a greater desire to win, both ICly and OOCly.

Admittedly, I'm always a little suspicious of unusual classes, and of my few questionable experiences with others' characters on this server alone seem to be variants/prestiges.

I wouldn't worry to much about it ICly. If your character is competent and is equally willing to fight, go ahead and challenge them. If they imply an advantage they shouldn't have, call them out on it.

Also, demon hunters are determined warriors, but trained and even physically altered to fight specifically demons.

[Piken]

Not to mention, from an OOC standpoint, someone making a character with a former prestige class is probably more interested in combat than in general- and this can sometimes manifest as a greater desire to win, both ICly and OOCly.

In my opinion, anyone making a variant class(or RPing out becoming such, as some do) who is doing it so they can be 'better', is doing it for the wrong reasons completely, and should question the -real- reason why they are doing such things. Yes, the flair is nice, but the character development and RP that can come with it are and should be the true reasons for doing such things. Anything else is a -possible- minor plus. In my opinion, of course.

But no, these classes are not 'better'. They just earn reputations for being.. whatever their class's reputation is. Now, also, in my opinion, I think some people should take care not to.. completely ignore the stigma/reputation these classes have come to earn, just because it can add a nice flavor to the RP.

(And any DH flaunting themselves about in public must be hunted!)

<3

[Dae]

Not to mention, from an OOC standpoint, someone making a character with a former prestige class is probably more interested in combat than in general- and this can sometimes manifest as a greater desire to win, both ICly and OOCly.

In my opinion, anyone making a variant class(or RPing out becoming such, as some do) who is doing it so they can be 'better', is doing it for the wrong reasons completely, and should question the -real- reason why they are doing such things. Yes, the flair is nice, but the character development and RP that can come with it are and should be the true reasons for doing such things. Anything else is a -possible- minor plus. In my opinion, of course.

I suppose I phrased that poorly, though I do support your sentiments. Its just that a lot of the variant classes around here (Blade master, demon hunter, steam warrior, etc) directly address fighting and how to do it in a variety of specialized and colorful ways. And I'm not really going to go make a Demon Hunter if I'm not going to have hunting demons a top priority for the character; it just wouldn't make sense. But if someone's put all this effort into making a character that fights, I'd bet a nickel they're invested in fighting RP. And if they're very invested, and you and your character are less so, then the pressure that applies to a situation can become palpable.
And, of course, there are the occasional players who will, say, abuse the vagueness of a variant class's abilities to come up with powers they really shouldn't have, in unfortunate examples of munchkining. :/ (Please be aware that my mild bitterness on this matter is likely affecting the tone of my writing)

But yeah, there are necromancers and bards and other variant ideas that do things that the playable classes can't offer and provide more RP flexibility than any specific battle advantage.

[Rowgen]

Not to mention, from an OOC standpoint, someone making a character with a former prestige class is probably more interested in combat than in general- and this can sometimes manifest as a greater desire to win, both ICly and OOCly.

Admittedly, I'm always a little suspicious of unusual classes, and of my few questionable experiences with others' characters on this server alone seem to be variants/prestiges.

I wouldn't worry to much about it ICly. If your character is competent and is equally willing to fight, go ahead and challenge them. If they imply an advantage they shouldn't have, call them out on it.

Also, demon hunters are determined warriors, but trained and even physically altered to fight specifically demons.

I've actually received complaints that I don't play my class. I prioritize fair play and good RP over winning, so sometimes strange results of battles happen. ( For instance, my powerful melee Fel-Sworn/Fel Orc Garm ended in a draw with a normal Orc in a fist fight. Zenethen can confirm that. xD )

While it's not logical, I believe it's a healthy view on the matter. Even though your character is a powerful one, you can have a bad day. Garm had a lot of those. Conveniently whenever someone approached him with a weapon in hand. In the end he became Worf, that guy who looks so big and strong, but he's beaten up by everyone and their mother to show how strong the enemy is.

[requiem225]

Ok, so it's reputation. But then my next question. Why doesn't reputation hold for some base classes. or organizations.

Personally I would think that a paladin in Human, and possibly, dwarf society would be a group held with great respect. Wile shamans and druids for the Horde and night elves would me treated as kinda the wise sage. Mages across all groups i expect, would be treated with a little awe, save for Blood Elves where they are very common, while warlocks might be treated with a bit of fear.

Some may make the arguement "Well, all the base classes are a dime a dozen." and you would be right... among PCs, but not among NPCs. In fact the only base class I could see being everywhere would be the warrior, but that is only because that would be the common soldier.

I guess my point is, if a reputation is held for some specialty classes, shouldn't we hold it for all? I don't know, I could very well be ranting.

[Reigen]

To answer that:

Most of the paladins, mages, shamans ect do little to have that air of respect around them. Most of them act too much like every-day people, going to bars and such, that they just don't seem like anything you'd respect above anyone else. There's also the fact that, OOCly, we've experienced them so much that it's just hard to think they're anything beyond common, even if they really are not ICly. It's a mentality that's hard to break on something you can just pop on and roll.

If you think something should be respected/feared, have your character act as such. It may catch on!

[Dascki]

We should. The same way many nobles should be either respected or feared due to their family history. Problem is, nobody really cares since everyone is one of those exceptions above most NPCs. As for paladins in Human culture, the Holy Light is the primary religion of the Humans and so they should revere the paladins, but once again, the general human populace on the server are not the run-of-the-mill humans. Same thing with shamans with orcs/tauren and most other 'revered' classes. Whereas Death Knights should be feared, since they were made to kill and they usually dress very threatening. I mean, even if magic existed and I could use it, I'd still be atleast -very- wary around a DK.

People choose to do this with DHs, however, because they are so rare and such a unique variant that when they see one they go 'Oh shit... We've got a badass over here.'

Don't forget that people's personalities can change this, but I think for the most part, people should recognize other' classes and atleast try to show it in the character. (Once the character in question has revealed aid class.)

/2 cents

Edit: Reigen said it smarter. :3

[Harmonic]

For some reason, the way I play characters, they get that "stigma" around them too... especially Rensin. I've tried hard to make it so that he's an every-day run of the mill warrior, with a background in fighting. However, for some reason, when arena fighting or fist fighting there are a number of people that put this... well, sort of mythos on my character that I never did. It more happened in the past, when I had him as a Gladiator, even though I gave him -no- special abilities, nor did I change his fighting style from that of a typical warrior... it was more of a title.

I agree with Loxxy. IC stigma seems to play pretty heavily in how people react to things on CoTH. It's sort of the opposite of those who don't fear anything... those who are cautious of the normal. Really, the most fair balance you can have, is being scared when you're being threatened, but being neutral when you're not. Unless you've got a good reason to be scared, doesn't always have to be the default choice.

But when you are facing a situation that IS scary, doesn't always mean you should adopt the "NOFEAR" position that -everyone- seems to do.

[Dae]

Another thing to note about variants/prestieges is that we often have a greater expectation for their character having earned their class.
Not that young characters are bad on their own, but we have just so many "18 and in training"-type characters that you aren't guaranteed someone you'd give much respect for, ICly. Even if a character were, say, a human paladin who just turned 20, I bet a 50-year-old human civilian character would expect some respect from them because of the matter of age.

Part of that I'll admit is unavoidable, so I wouldn't worry about it too badly unless people are taking things a step too far and not letting your character have a fighting chance.

And not to mention, if you feel the IC stigma of another person's character get out of hand, talk about it OOCly.

[Krent]

For some reason, the way I play characters, they get that "stigma" around them too... especially Rensin. I've tried hard to make it so that he's an every-day run of the mill warrior, with a background in fighting. However, for some reason, when arena fighting or fist fighting there are a number of people that put this... well, sort of mythos on my character that I never did. It more happened in the past, when I had him as a Gladiator, even though I gave him -no- special abilities, nor did I change his fighting style from that of a typical warrior... it was more of a title.

I agree with Loxxy. IC stigma seems to play pretty heavily in how people react to things on CoTH. It's sort of the opposite of those who don't fear anything... those who are cautious of the normal. Really, the most fair balance you can have, is being scared when you're being threatened, but being neutral when you're not. Unless you've got a good reason to be scared, doesn't always have to be the default choice.

But when you are facing a situation that IS scary, doesn't always mean you should adopt the "NOFEAR" position that -everyone- seems to do.

I can vouch for Rensin in saying that his character is a MUDDA BISH who gets his shaif SMACKED in a fist fight. 'Specially when he goes up against da 'Fupi.

Yeah I said it.

WHAT.

...but to the topic at hand, I think its actually a pretty good thing if people RP certain characters as being something you don't mess with. Now, I adhere strictly to the ideology that "No one should be allowed to RP power levels", because there's no way to gauge such a thing. Even so, most classes are specialized for certain situations. Someone skilled with long-ranged weapons wouldn't be as good in close range combat. An assassin might wreck your faise in an ambush but do not-so-well when caught unprepared. A berserker may be great in group combat but have difficulties in focusing on a single enemy who's out of their sight. So, its all situational. I don't think anyone can claim that class X is better than Y in all regards.

But, I'm also frowny-face whenever I see someone just kinda passively accept a Death Knight or a Fel-Sworn like they were nothing. People should show IC reactions to certain character classes. An orc grunt would show respect to a Blademaster, a warlock should show reverence to a Fel-Sworn, and a run-of-the-mill soldier should be hesitant in engaging a Demon Hunter. Should any of these classes get roll advantages or "power levels" over the others in RP combat? Hell no, unless all players consent to it.

Also, the situations described in the OP are more of a result from the OOC meta-awareness than anything else. I've noticed that a lot of people are hesitant to engage in armed conflict with one another due to the stigma of character death/maiming/OOC drama etc etc. The "don't mess with those guys 'cause they have class X on their side!" is usually just a convenient excuse to avoid a potentially messy RP situation.

While no one likes to admit this, combat RP is one of the most emotionally turbulent instances of RP ever. Tensions are high, and things can turn sour quick. The problem being that the RP conflict carries over OOC'ly. I've seen a lot of bad situations arise when two players debate a certain skill, or mechanic, or situation. Leads to a lot of rumor mongering and bickering and talks-behind-the-other-player's-back-about-how-much-of-a-jerk-they-are.

'S why I always say the best conflict RP can only come from players you've known for a really long time and get along with.