Vrykul, Val'kyr and Light Use

[c0rzilla]

Hello, CotH community! I seek your input. A topic came up in RP today about Vrykul using Light. My thoughts are, as a culture and historically, this does not make sense. I had a discussion with Krilari about it, and his thoughts are that it does make sense (and that was terrible grammar on my part).

What do you guys think? I honestly want to know.

Note, I hope this doesn't turn into a "sides" thing. Keep it nice! I'm also choosing not to post on the debate further myself.

Spoiler:

[7:19:00 PM] C0rfairy: Kay. As far as Vrukul/Val'kyr using Light, the only example I can find so far is an NPC summoned by an epic staff. I really doubt that counts much ;p And for using shadow/arcane, that seems to be only by undead under the Lich King. That can be explained by...well, the Lich King sticking it in their brains. However Scourge learns magic.
[7:19:25 PM] C0rfairy: http://wowpedia.org/Nibelung
[7:19:56 PM] C0rfairy: Any other Vrukyl seems to stick to their natural, elemental rune magic.
[7:25:06 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Aye, I remember Nibelung. However there are other Valkyr NPCs that use Light. Ultimately the only real example we have of vrykul is under the Lich King, and it's been noted that they've worshiped Yogg Saron prior as their death god.
[7:26:16 PM] C0rfairy: Can you link the Valkyr that use Light?
[7:27:05 PM] C0rfairy: As well...
[7:27:33 PM] C0rfairy: Yogg-Saron was asleep and bound until recently, until the war on the Lich King. The Vrykul he used were in Ulduar.
[7:27:36 PM] Matthew (Krilari): http://www.wowhead.com/npc=34497#abilities
[7:30:40 PM] C0rfairy: Eh, that's still only one NPC among many that don't, besides that Nibelung one. What's her twin?
[7:31:14 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Her twin uses shadow.
[7:31:28 PM] C0rfairy: Ah yeah. That, to me, just seems to be a game mechanic.
[7:31:49 PM] C0rfairy: And, again, shadow can be explains by being undead and necromantic.
[7:32:03 PM] C0rfairy: There is no cultural history of Vrykul using Light or Shadow.
[7:32:26 PM] Matthew (Krilari): http://www.wowpedia.org/Sister_Svalna
[7:34:07 PM] C0rfairy: I still say game mechanic ;p No Vrykul mob that I see uses Light, and suddenly Val'kyr do. Where'd they get it? It doesn't fit.
[7:34:27 PM] C0rfairy: -Especially- in the Scourge.
[7:34:46 PM] Matthew (Krilari): I don't think it's really worth dismissing if I've managed to show other examples of them using light.
[7:35:24 PM] C0rfairy: I...think it is. Because there are other examples, many, of them -living- where they don't. As well, there's the whole of human history before this.
[7:36:07 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Yes, however Light and Shadow are not exact opposites. Just because some use shadow does not mean others can not use Light.
[7:36:35 PM] C0rfairy: I'm not sure what that has to do with this. As well, the Shadow they use is necromantic, given by the Lich King.
[7:37:10 PM] C0rfairy: Which brings up an interesting idea--
[7:37:12 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Yes, and the Light they use is a form of magic just as much.
[7:37:24 PM] C0rfairy: That isn't the argument.
[7:37:44 PM] Matthew (Krilari): The argument is that Valkyr don't use the Light, correct?
[7:37:47 PM] C0rfairy: I'm not saying as an entity they can't use it. I'm saying -historicaly-- it doesn't make sense. And culturally.
[7:38:22 PM] C0rfairy: Culturally, historically, I can see them using shadow and arcane, as it would be gifted by the Ligh King.
[7:38:29 PM] C0rfairy: Light? Makes no sense.
[7:38:35 PM] Matthew (Krilari): That's the thing, however, we have only our own opinions.
[7:38:58 PM] C0rfairy: -Unless-, maybe, they learned it--yes, and we have to make sense of it with our opinions in tune with the game's lore.
[7:39:10 PM] C0rfairy: Some things we toss out as game mechanics when things clash too much.
[7:40:08 PM] Matthew (Krilari): On occasion, perhaps, but I think at this point you're tossing out the wrong things. There isn't a part of their history that says they can't have oracles that use the Light.
[7:40:44 PM] C0rfairy: Except until now, every living Vrykul I've seen on WoWHead has used elemental runic magic.
[7:41:18 PM] C0rfairy: If there was a living Vrykul that used Light, then yeah, your argument would have more weight.
[7:41:26 PM] C0rfairy: -Now-
[7:42:11 PM] C0rfairy: I was going to say, before I got distracted, that maybe the Val'kyrl, fighting paladins in the Scarlet Crusade and the Argent Crusade, and then there's that four horsemen guy that's a paladin...
[7:42:15 PM] C0rfairy: Maybe they picked it up from there.
[7:42:46 PM] C0rfairy: -Before- that, however, as living Vrykul, it doesn't make sense to me.
[7:44:33 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Saying the Val'kyr picked up Light from the paladins is a bit less likely then saying they just could conjure it.
[7:45:01 PM] C0rfairy: Conjure it?
[7:45:35 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Conjure, yes. They had the ability to use it prior.
[7:45:44 PM] C0rfairy: ...Also, I forget, is it shown what NPCs they come from?
[7:45:56 PM] C0rfairy: Use it prior to what?
[7:46:10 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Prior to them running into paladins and priests of human creation.
[7:46:56 PM] C0rfairy: Where is that shown?
[7:47:12 PM] C0rfairy: The Val'kyr are a recent creation, I think.
[7:47:54 PM] Matthew (Krilari): "The val'kyr originate at an unknown point in time, but seem to pre-date the Lich King."

http://wowpedia.org/Val%27kyr
[7:49:09 PM] C0rfairy: "... being described by Thoralius the Wise as being "fearsome creatures made of pure nightmare" that "now stand watch over the realm of the elements"." This also counters, to me, their lore-Light use. I don't see, lore-wise, creatures of nightmare, and elemental beings using the Light.
[7:50:15 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Yet we see two examples of them using Light, which rules out the single, special snowflake argument for Lightbane.
[7:50:54 PM] C0rfairy: Which I say is a game mechanic. -Unless-, they have access to it as spiritual beings. Which, still, wouldn't say Vrykul as a culture use it.
[7:51:04 PM] C0rfairy: And--
[7:51:37 PM] C0rfairy: We don't know much about ancient val'kyr. The ones the Lich King uses are all recent creations.
[7:52:18 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Waving it off as a Game Mechanic is an unjust dismissal. And yes, there is little known of the older Val'kyr, meaning neither of us have much room to make assumptions.
[7:52:50 PM | Edited 7:52:59 PM] C0rfairy: It makes just sense to me.
[7:57:04 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Also, there is a brief example of Vrykul using light.
[7:57:07 PM] Matthew (Krilari): http://www.wowhead.com/npc=30751#abilities Has the Heal Ability.
[7:59:38 PM] C0rfairy: Trying to discern if it's undead.
[8:00:04 PM] Matthew (Krilari): Not undead.
[8:00:28 PM] C0rfairy: Ehhh, still not wholly convinced.

[CappnRob]

Something to note is only ONE of those NPCs uses any ability that specifically refers to the Light by name. The other three do use holy/divine spells (notably priest spells), but those spells are not specifically Light in nature. Remember that the Light is not the ONLY divine/holy source of magic, others exist such as the Loa and Elune. The one that DOES explicitly state the word "light" is a boss fight in the Argent Colosseum raid... aaaand her lore says she was a high ranking lieutenant of Arthas. Now of course this isn't the first time a mighty warrior of the Scourge would've used the Light *COUGHSirZelikCOUGH*, that -specific- incident was the result of a man so righteous and holy he told you to run away before he killed you. The Val'kyr sisters... not so much. So either Fjola has some derpy spell naming; or she's exceptionally weird.

And that's the key word: exceptional. Vykrul are not culturally compatible with the Light at all; they're a pagan people who practice rune magic. Their ways are violent and barbaric, and even between their tribes they are marked by sexual segregation, violence and slavery. They seem to have some sort of pantheon of gods and willingly accept the Lich King as one as well. Furthermore, humans were the first Azeroth race to discover the Light, and it was a unifying force that led to the establishment of Lordaeron. As for those other vykrul? Likely using generic divine/healing magic, perhaps as a rune or a blessing from their gods. Who knows? We don't. The likelihood of any Vykrul using the Light much less following it is extremely slim; and if at all possible shows exception to the rule, not adherence.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Fjola Lightbane; emphasis on the bane part. It means that the light hated her, not that it was a buddy-buddy thing.

As for them calling on some divinity for their faith-based powers -- I've always put that towards them worshipping the Titans, not the Lich King or the Light. After all, a town literally in the shadow of Thorim's temple is named Valkyrion. As well as this, the item Val'anyr was known to be of Titan make, and shares a prefix with Val'kyr. There's a bit more pieces that I have involved with this, but I'm too tired to go look 'em up. So, TL;DR incoming.

TL;DR; They worshipped the Titans beforehand, and originate from a time where the Titans were more active. Also, it's Lightbane, not Lightlove.

[Thoradin]

Chiming in to say that Val'anyr was hand-made by one of the Titans, if I recall correctly, and was gifted to the first King of the Earthen.

In any case, I would say that the Val'kyr probably discovered a means of using the Light as a tool of War, most likely under Arthas. Did other Vrykul use the Light? Maybe not under that name, just as the Tol'vir Sunpriests don't worship the Light, but use it. Just as the Tauren Sunwalkers don't worship the Light, but use it. Different races/cultures have been shown to have different takes on the Light, so there is probably something that makes sense for those half-giant vikings.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Chiming in to say that Val'anyr was hand-made by one of the Titans, if I recall correctly, and was gifted to the first King of the Earthen.

I know! I was just pointing out that they have similar prefixes. Fun bit; Val'anyr was created to grant life to other Earthen. Perhaps "Val" has something to do with Life, as the Val'kyr give (second) life to the worthy? Just a thought.

[Aisha]

I am actually surprised nobody directly called out Blizzard and their habbit of making absurd derps just for the sake of keeping GRIND.exe going. Why design a new spell and everything if you can just slap on an existing one?

It could simply be a design oversight, or more likely a programer being lazy. So now people like us who are lore oriented are confused when it's just gameplay mechanics, so I wouldn't base an opinion off an NPC and stick to logic and what we know.

Thus I too agree that it just doesn't fit that Vrykul use Light or at least in the same sense Humans do and ignore the NPC as an argument because of Blizzard's consistency record not being spotless.

[muhaha8]

just as the Tol'vir Sunpriests don't worship the Light, but use it. Just as the Tauren Sunwalkers don't worship the Light, but use it. Different races/cultures have been shown to have different takes on the Light

This is my thoughts on this, in a nutshell. I don't see a problem with them using the Light at all. Nobody ever said you had to worship anything to use the Light, or really any other source of power. The precedent on that end extends to the Taunka and their use of the Elements by force, rather than by the traditional pacts and binds and deals that your normal shaman would undergo. There's never any bit of lore anywhere, as far as I can find, that says that one must worship the Light in order to use it. That's just an assumption based upon the fact that the game's original users of it were Humans, and their ideology about it fit the bill perfectly for "worship first, power second."

[FlyingSquirrel]

To back up what Muha said, there's a quote from War of the Ancients where Alexstrasza uses something that sounds a lot like the Light. Last paragraph from here.

In War of the Ancients: The Sundering, when attempting to heal Korialstrasz that are being blasted by the Demon Soul, Alexstrasza uses a healing magic that sounds suspiciously like the Holy Light. It baths the Aspect in golden radiance and touches Malfurion and co. as a gentle warmth and eases their troubled minds. It matches the description and effects of the Holy Light. Their are possibility that the Light is some sort of an element that can be tapped, just like shamans and druids tapped the elements and natural forces.

[c0rzilla]

...Hmm...

I know I said I would post on here, but hey.

There was a large debate a while back about mages and shamans. It was determined the mages' control over the elements would be limited, so as to make sure the shamans had the true flavor for the elements, and make them unique.

That's kind of the way I feel about Light use and races and cultures. It seems to water down its aspects and nature if aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyone (besides demons, please not demons, ever, yes I know a mob in-game uses a "Light" spell) can use it with a hand-wave about belief in anything.

Mind, I'm talking about Light, not the strange, myriad divinities like Elune and such.

[CappnRob]

Again, ALL divine healing magic has the appearance of golden radiant stuff. The Light is just ONE of likely thousands of divine sources of magic in the cosmos; I highly doubt Tol'vir and Sunwalkers use the actual -Light-, they draw their power from sun deities. That Shivarra boss in BT also using healing spells, but it too could be any sort of divine magic. Alexstrasza is the queen of all dragons and the LIFEBINDER, it'd make sense for her own power to be a radiant healing force.

With exception of the Blood Knights (who had hijacked a being MADE of Light and used their expert magic-sucking racial powers to leech off it) every race that professes use of the Light has to follow its example to utilize it. Again, the Light is NOT the only divine power source in the universe.

[Krilari]

Just a note, since I think my point was a bit snuffed out here. I was arguing for the fact that Vrykul have a history of using 'Light' magic. Not necessary the belief of the Light, but just the Holy magic that it manifests as.

[Dae]

The safest bet in my book would be to find a Titan that may have taught them to use Light, but the closest thing I can find is pre-Burning Legion Sargeras, whose demeanor, actions and weapon fit the bill of one really, really big paladin.

Without confirmation of this, I'd say the closest bet would be whatever altruistic forces they might have gained from the Life-Binder. (the Titan, not the dragon. :P)