Custom Lore Proposal; Orcish Paladins

[FlyingSquirrel]

So, in Grakor's recent thread, there was a conversation about creating new race/class combos. One of the more commonly referenced combinations was that of an Orc and a Paladin, and that's the one I want to focus on.

Of course, at face value, this is a complete dichotomy. The Orcs are savages, barbarians, etc, all those nice little words, and while they can be good, they don't have the connection to the Light that other Paladin races do. And Paladins, at least those of the more core races, are very noble, bright and civilized people. Well, most. This was kinda thrown topsy-turvy at the introduction of Sunwalkers, but I'm not so much going to focus on them, as they're kind of their own deal and only truly Paladins in an OOC mechanic sort of way (at least in my opinion. If you want to debate this, feel free to PM me). After all, I personally believe that Orcish Paladinism would be closer to that of the Draenei, then to that of the Dwarves, Humans, Blood Elves and Tauren.

But first, let's focus on what it means to be a Paladin instead. Well, not so much that, as it can vary from person to person and from race to race. For example, during the bulk of the Burning Crusade, the Blood Knights tore their power from a Naaru, and yet they were still considered Paladins. That's hardly the behavior we would expect of one, and yet there they are. However, one link that is there for all Paladins is that they are all connected to the Naaru. The Draenei are perhaps one of the more prevalent examples, what with their whole race being empowered by the Naaru. Even the Dwarves and Humans, who had been Paladins long before they even knew of the Naaru, are granted the same power the Naaru weild.

The naaru (pronounced ['na:ru]; singular naaru) are a dimension-traveling race of sentient energy beings, with a deep affinity for the Holy Light of Creation that empowers the paladins of Azeroth.[1]

Naarus are known as pure beacons of the Holy Light, and naturally any race involved with them would have some attachment to the Light, no?

And now, while you may be saying 'Hold up Squirrel, the Orcs are--' No. Let me stop you there. The Orcs actually have a very deep connection to the Naaru; especially K'ure. For those who don't want t read it, it essentially boils down to the following.

K'ure was a Na'aru on the Draenei ship Genedar, which later became Oshu'gun. K'ure became ill at their landing, and took to befriending the Orcish ancestors. The ancestors were, in turn, drawn towards Oshu'gun, which quickly became the Orcish holy site. In fact, the ancestors even structured the Orcish religion around caring for K'ure.

During the Orcish festival of Kosh'harg, shaman would enter Oshu'gun and add blessed water to this pool as a ritual to speak with their ancestors. Unknown to those shaman was the fact that the blessed water also helped to sustain K'ure by allowing him to heal himself enough to slow down his dying process.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that the living Orcs were aware of K'ure. In fact, they probably weren't. The reasons why are varied; maybe the spirits didn't trust them? Who knows. But times change. We have seen the Naaru taking a much more proactive stance in the world. After all, there's one leading the siege on the Black Temple, and A'dal himself assures the protection of a Human Crusader during the Wrath of the Lich King.

Now, I hope that, by this point, I've established that there is a connection between the Orcs and Na'aru, even if, by this point, it is fairly one sided. And now, at this point, some of you may be asking what Orcs are possible of meeting the Na'aru halfway. Well, I would point to the server's population of Spirit Walkers and Champions. The Spirits are those closest to the Naaru amongst the Orcs, and thus those closest to the spirits might be the best to be close to the Naaru. A friend of a friend, so to speak. Similar storylines might be taken with Orcs that have Draenei friends, or that are members of the Sha'tar, but I believe it might be easiest with the path I've outlined.

So, thoughts? Concerns? Holes in my ideas?

[MstrCorvus]

You've got me on board. Could lead to an orc doing some searching to reconnect with the Naaru.

[Zenethen]

I'm kind of iffy on this. K'ure did bring the orcish spirits close to him, yes, but... The orcs serve the spirits, not the thing the spirits cling to (unless, of course, you count the land beneath them as something the spirits cling to). I'd accept the idea if it came out in earnest, but I'd be very wary on it. Sunwalkers were a stretch as-is on race/class combos, even if they were an IC thing but using OOC connections. I just would find it funny for any orc worth his salt in spirit-wise thoughts 'serving' something to the extent they can make flashy spells. That and in my opinion shamanism is much more powerful and respectful than paladins :v Making giant flashes of Light that hurt people is less scary than being able to open the earth itself up, let you fall into it, then close it around you.

Edit:

times change

Spoiler:

[Grakor456]

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that the living Orcs were aware of K'ure. In fact, they probably weren't.

If I recall correctly from Rise of the Horde, the draenei actually attempted to inform the orcs about the presence of K'ure in the mountain, only to be angrily branded as heretics at the time. ...and then K'ure unwittingly started destroying the souls of the ancestors. Oops.

I don't really have a strong opinion on the proposal one way or another beyond that I think the orcs might be a little bitter over the knowledge that their ancestor's spirits were utterly wiped from existence. I know I would be.

I think I mentioned before that I wanted to see the "religious/divine" classes spread around more, but orc paladin isn't particularly a combination that needs to happen for that. It's a little contrary to their central theme.

To note: I don't mind people discussing individual combinations, but actual submissions for this will be handled differently and at a later time.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I just would find it funny for any orc worth his salt in spirit-wise thoughts 'serving' something to the extent they can make flashy spells. That and in my opinion shamanism is much more powerful and respectful than paladins :v Making giant flashes of Light that hurt people is less scary than being able to open the earth itself up, let you fall into it, then close it around you.

Well, Zen, I think we're looking at different reasons why an Orc would go through the journey necessary. To you, this would be some massive cultural overtaking in order to make the Orcs and Horde more powerful. At least, that's the interpretation I'm getting from your above quoted piece.

To me, this would be a deal of societal repentance on a small scale. It's not about power, it's not about gaining respect through being powerful, it's about realizing that the Orcs kinda messed up and trying to make up for their errant ways. And they're looking to show the world that Orcs can be just as good as bad through wielding something that's generally seen as a pretty good thing (The Light).

Now, of course, that's only one possible reason why they'd do this. I'm not going to write a reason and demand that everyone does it, but that's what I think is the most plausible reason.

---

and then K'ure unwittingly started destroying the souls of the ancestors. Oops.

I don't really have a strong opinion on the proposal one way or another beyond that I think the orcs might be a little bitter over the knowledge that their ancestor's spirits were utterly wiped from existence. I know I would be.

All bits about on whether you like the combo or not, I'm gonna focus on this bit.

Honestly, I completely understand this, and I could see it happening. However, one bit that we also have to acknowledge is the fact that, through this, the spirits have stuck with K'ure. Sure, an Orc may be bitter, but when the spirits kinda say 'yo, don't be so pissy about it, we're the ones being killed and we're decent with it', it kinda says something, no? Obviously, it would be up to the individual Orc, but one with your opinion that kinda hates these Paladins and goes around slandering them would undoubtedly make for some nice RP.

[Zenethen]

I'll rephrase my point since I did word my original post a little... Off.

I can see Orcs seeking atonement for the stuff they've done. It happens. However... Why would any orc break through their cultural and societal bounds so much as to embrace the Light? Their only ally that even uses it is the elves, and orcs and elves haven't always gotten along. From a standpoint of military service, the Light is the chief weapon of the Alliance other than heavy arcane. From a basic viewpoint, to what orc does the Light seem a better chance to seek atonement with than the spirits? If they seek the Light because it is looked at as 'good', then what are the spirits?

Orcs can be just as good as bad through wielding something that's generally seen as a pretty good thing

The spirits are seen as a very good thing by many races, including Alliance ones. The Draenei respect the spirits, as do dwarves and night elves. I mean, if there's an individual orc that's out there to wield the Light as 'atonement' rather than becoming a spirit champion or something like that... I'd say they'd better have a darn good answer to the simplest question to ask right now: Why?

Why is the Light a better 'good' for orcs than the spirits? Why a paladin and not a champion of the spirits? Why the weapon of the enemy (from the viewpoint of some)? Why something that does not associate with them at all?

With other race/class combos, this question is easily answered. Human shamans are that they used to be a tribal race, therefore shamanism makes sense. Gnome hunters make sense because hunters are basically glorified ranged warriors, and the gnomes revolve around mainly ranged combat (considering all of their automated defenses in Gnomer are machine guns and such). But with orcs... They've had no past history wielding the Light. Their only past history is that they worship a crashed alien spaceship that happens to have a creature in it that attracts their spirits. Said creature, in later days, was infact consuming their spirits, but they didn't know that. Unless an orc paladin as an individual character and not a concept for future characters has worked with blood elves on becoming an actual paladin, I can't see orcish paladins really fitting anywhere. To Horde extremists, they'd be exiles. Outcasts.

I feel at this point I'm just rambling whatever comes to mind so I'll stop here.

[muhaha8]

I changed my vote.

The way it's being presented, IMO, is totally awesome. However, I don't think it supports Paladins. Instead, I feel like the better option, if Flying's lore were used, would probably be Priests over Paladins.

EDIT: That means yes, I totally voted for the third option instead of the first.

[Joe2618]

We discussed this idea earlier Flying Squirrel and after our conversation I am in favour. I might just be spewing out bad ideas (It's late over here right now.) But a Paladin might draw his strength from his ancestors. (I hear you all saying this is Shamanism but hold up.) Shamanism draws it's strength through spirits. The idea I propose is honouring the spirits and drawing the light through the belief you act as a hand for your ancestors.

Yes this sounds once more like Shamanism and maybe it could be an offshoot. Except the Orc doesn't speak to the spirit, but rather they honour the memories of those before them and draw strength in atoning for there actions?

Doing what's right so there spirits can rest? Feeling pretty Paladin like to me. And if I need to convince you further. (Because why not right?) Orcs have spent many years learning from the errors of there ways with fel right? You know being enslaved to a pitlord and such. So wouldn't they want guardians of light to protect and fight off the demons?

I don't know much about Orc culture but if a demon enslaved me as a person I would learn as much about the light as possible to protect myself.

Still haven't convinced you? The Legion is coming, and the Draenei have informed the masses about an army of light. This might be my weakest point. But look at it like this...The Draenei are experienced enemies of the legion, the Orcs don't have as much knowledge on the legion who could kill them all as the Draenei do. Were I then I would bite there hand off, and learn what they could from them. (But alas war right?)

Any-ways to sum up, I think the Orcs might have a few reasons to learn about the light.

[Zenethen]

I think we're misunderstanding exactly what Paladins are in WoW. In traditional DnD, Paladins are pretty much do-gooding people who happen to serve gods and have holy spells because of their belief and their good actions. This is far different from WoW Paladins. WoW Paladins, while they are taught compassion and understanding and respect (as well as tenacity), are not -required- to do good to keep their powers. I'm not saying WoW Paladins can just walk around flailing the Light and acting evil, but so long as a Paladin does not harm innocents or outwardly cause the deaths of thousands of innocents, they're usually fine.

The mechanics of a Paladin are also different. When we speak of drawing power from faith, this is how priests work. Priests work by drawing their power from the belief in their higher power. Hence why troll priests and tauren priests exist - they don't worship the Light, they believe in the Loa and the <Insert Tauren Priestly Belief Here> (if I remember right, I think An'she?) respectively, and so they have priest-like powers. Paladins do not draw power from faith or belief. WoW Paladins are based off of a holy ritual in which you are, more or less, imbued with the Light. You are connected with the Light, and expected to be a champion of it. I'll use an old example and say this - a priest can act as evil as they like, but so long as they believe in the Light, they can do their holy spells. A paladin has to follow the tenants of the Order of the Silver Hand (which has only recently been applied to Blood Knights, though not all Belf Paladins have to follow them because Sunwell magic) to hold onto their powers because they are, for better or worse, 'one with the Light'.

In short, a Paladin is not simply a do-gooder who, as a bonus for their good deeds, gets a bunch of fancy powers. Their strength does not come from doing good or atoning for actions. A Paladin is a Light-imbued (Sunwalkers excluded, as they are a completely different thing that only uses Paladins are an OOC mechanic) warrior that happens to also do good deeds because it is a part of their tenants. There are, of course, 'exceptions' to this rule, but they have been very clearly marked as to why they are exceptions. The Draenei have an exception in this (partially) because the Draenei are already imbued with the Light, so being a Paladin is just harnessing their inner Light in the form of a Vindicator. The Blood Elves have an exception because even if they don't follow the tenants, they're still fueled by the Light of the Sunwell. I've already spoken of the Tauren, but... I'll assume you get the point.

With how WoW Paladins work, I cannot see orcs being paladins. If it were more like DnD paladins, a 'paladin of the spirits' would make a -lot- of sense and I would be fine with that. But WoW's structure for paladins is not at all the structure for DnD Paladins. I'll try to answer your points, Joe, one by one.

Orcs have spent many years learning from the errors of there ways with fel right? You know being enslaved to a pitlord and such. So wouldn't they want guardians of light to protect and fight off the demons?

From a practical viewpoint of 'this is what can save us'... What is it that has saved the orcish race? Orcish strength, and shamanistic belief. When the orcs were downtrodden, weakened, -devastated- in internment camps, what was it that brought them back to their feet? Made them believe that they are -free-? It was shamanism. When Grommash Hellscream drank the felblood for the second time, what was it that saved him? Yes, some arcane/Light was involved, but the ritual was primarily shamanistic (considering it almost literally involved ripping his spirit from his mortal body to reconstruct it). There is no evidence of shamanism not working against the demons, and if this is an efficacy point, I'd say that being able to make the earth itself crush your enemies is a lot more efficient than spraying some Light on 3-4 opponents at a time which happens to be very effective.

The Legion is coming, and the Draenei have informed the masses about an army of light.

This is... Very out-there for a point of support. The Army of Light has never been described as an army where every single member wields the Light as their weapon. It's always been described as an army where all races unite and fight back the Burning Legion, with the Naaru (basically incarnations of Light) at the head of the army. The reason behind the name 'Army of Light' is because of who leads the army - the Naaru. They do not really seek anything past unity between the races, so that when the Burning Legion comes we can all stomp on them together rather than the Burning Legion stomping on us.

From WoWpedia -

The Army of the Light is a possible future force of enlightened races that the naaru said would one day combat the ravages of the Burning Legion. When the naaru came to the Prophet Velen and rescued the draenei from the fury of Kil'jaeden, they promised that the Exiled Ones would one day be part of a grand force.

The draenei have awaited the day when the Army would emerge for more than twenty millennia. One of the Prophet Velen's many visions was of the Army of the Light: a grand coalition of humans, dwarves, gnomes, night elves, worgen, orcs, tauren, trolls, blood elves -- and even the undead, and the goblins. The draenei themselves are fortold as the backbone of this mighty army, with a numerous amount of naaru joining the fray against the darkness, along with an innumerable amount of dragons.

I'll reiterate my former point - if this were something that only an individual orc sought, rather than a concept for an entire group of orcs, it'd make a lot of sense. But -only- if they are able to answer an essential question at this point. Why the Light and not the spirits? Are the spirits not a force of good? Is respecting your ancestors 'not good enough'?

[Grakor456]

Honestly, I completely understand this, and I could see it happening. However, one bit that we also have to acknowledge is the fact that, through this, the spirits have stuck with K'ure. Sure, an Orc may be bitter, but when the spirits kinda say 'yo, don't be so pissy about it, we're the ones being killed and we're decent with it', it kinda says something, no?

Do we actually know that this is the case? We know the spirits helped K'ure, but that's before he started turning them all into void creatures. They never directly speak about their perspective to the PC during the Nagrand quest chain, beyond them calling for help because they're in pain/getting slaughtered.

I dunno. I feel that if you were to try for orc paladins, going the "Sunwalker route" (that is, an entirely different IC concept that uses paladin as an OOC base) would be the better manner of reaching this end. Even then, I think there are other classes that orcs are missing that would fit their themes better.

[Zenethen]

I was meaning to say this in my original post, but I forgot to.

I feel that if you were to try for orc paladins, going the "Sunwalker route"

I personally think the "Sunwalker route" of 'orc paladins' is already there... Spirit Champions. They are, more or less, on the orcish side, paladins of the spirits, are they not? Their spirit companion is their Guardian of Ancient Kings, their elemental powers are their 'Light' powers, etc.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I'll reiterate my former point - if this were something that only an individual orc sought, rather than a concept for an entire group of orcs, it'd make a lot of sense. But -only- if they are able to answer an essential question at this point. Why the Light and not the spirits? Are the spirits not a force of good? Is respecting your ancestors 'not good enough'?

I'm not gonna quote the entire thing, as I find that this basically sums it up. For me, you're treating this as if worshiping your ancestors and using the Light are mutually exclusive. As for the spirits not being good, I'm not trying to say that. Yea, they're good. But only certain races respect them; (some) Draenei, (some) Dwarves and Tauren are really the only ones I can think of at the moment.

But what about the other races? So, in the case where you're trying to prove that you're not so bad, you may want to go with something that's a bit more well-known and respected, like the Light.

Again, I'm not trying to say that this is the only reason Orcs would do it. And I'm not gonna try to list all the reasons they would, as CotH's a diverse server and there's no way in hell I could come up with every reason why an Orc might do this. And again, no Orcs may do it. But I think that I've laid out the base lore as to why an Orc would be able to do this. I'm not gonna touch the mess that is why an Orc would do that, as it varies from Orc to Orc and it would be too much for me to even think of all of them.

@"Grakor456" No, we don't know that's the case. However, I doubt that Blizzard is going to touch current Draenor any more, so we kind of have to go with it. However, I'd say that the spirits definitely knew something was wrong with K'ure, and stayed there willingly. And through all that time, while they were being devoured, they stayed. Maybe not willingly all the time, due to the demon shield set up by Gul'dan and Kil'jaedan, but when that was down they still stayed in the area. And ultimately, we don't know beyond that, and we could go any direction. Maybe the green Orcs set up a camp nearby to care for it 24/7. Maybe they just completely ignored it and the Mag'har can't help it because they don't have the people. Simply put, we don't know.

As for the Sunwalker Route, I disagree. I hope I've shown that the Orcs have a direct link to something that, if anything, would make them a Paladin, and I think it would be silly that, if we are going to make Orcish Paladins, to just ignore that. But that's just my opinion in this whole deal.

[Cerb57]

Since I'm not the most active player around these days, thought I'd chime in.

I doubt the Orcish people would try a using the Light after, still very recently reconnecting to their Shamanistic roots. Which I believe is less than ten years If I am correct, props to anyone who knows otherwise.

[Brutalskars]

I personally do not believe orcs would like the idea of having 'paladins'. The idea of orcs taking up the ideals or even skill sets even close to imitating those of their most dire foe's champions would be silly to me and pushing lore a bit too far.

I am one to believe the orcs are intelligent enough to see the clear similarities between Sunwalkers, Bloodknights and Paladins - they would not jump on the train to be cool. The orcs are a prideful species that would keep to their now regained beliefs in shamanism and not try taking in other alien beliefs instead.

[Mathias]

Since I'm not the most active player around these days, thought I'd chime in.

I doubt the Orcish people would try a using the Light after, still very recently reconnecting to their Shamanistic roots. Which I believe is less than ten years If I am correct, props to anyone who knows otherwise.

12 years. Thrall started freeing orcs (and reintroducing Shamanism) on year 18 ADP.

Anyway, like the poll option, I'm not really feeling this. Partly because... you could justify anyone being a paladin by saying "Naaru did it", which feels pretty lazy and not very creative, and I would prefer something more unique if we were going to allow orc paladins. This might be personal bias seeing as how I dislike the idea of Naaru, as it gave rise to the idea of "Elune is actually a naaru" and "humans and dwarves get powers from a naaru". Which is silly.

New Custom Lore Proposal: Kill the Naaru from lore