FIRST: Don't flame, if you don't agree, then say it out politely.
Anways...
In Barrenschat there was a pretty long fight about whether mages should be able to use fireballs under water or not.
Ways I found it MAY be possible:
1. A mage somehow conjures a bubble of oxygen around the fire.
2. A mage keeps powering the fireball.
3. Mages don't have normal fire, they have magical fire.
4. Mages defy logic anyway.
If you think of a way that a mage MAY be able to use it under water, then you're more than welcome to post your idea.
Well, seems like it would be possible, normal flame does not work underwater as there is no oxygen to fuel it i imagine, but fire fueled by other means, such as magic, likely could.
Yes, Arcane fire burns underwater. It is imposing your will over reality, hence, it can burn without oxygen, without fuel('Cept for the energy you expend in sustaining the spell), aaand without anything to actually burn.
Simply put, it's Arcane energy you "tell" to produce heat... Which leads to producing fire.
flammos200 Wrote:Yes, Arcane fire burns underwater. It is imposing your will over reality, hence, it can burn without oxygen, without fuel('Cept for the energy you expend in sustaining the spell), aaand without anything to actually burn.
Simply put, it's Arcane energy you "tell" to produce heat... Which leads to producing fire.
It probably won't be fire... it will be just heat. There will be no actual flame. Since fire magic is actually Arcane heat, which is lit once it gets out of the mage's body, due to laws of physic and chemistry (extreme temperatures, oxygen, etc). So, the water will get hot, it will boil and steam, but there will be no actual fire.
EDIT: And the idea about the bubble of air around the flame is possible. Then there will be a flame, but it will probably draw too much from the mage, since the bubble must be either huge... and by huge, I really mean huge if you have a massive fireball... or constantly fed with oxygen. In both cases the caster will be half-dead of exhaustion after this.
I like the explanation of it becoming a ball of boiling water instead. Same effect, different visual. Works better and more smoothly than trying to rationalize how fire is existing when completely submerged in water.
That said, mages specialize in bending the rules of reality, so all bets are off. One way or another, fire magic is castable underwater, it's just a question of how it manifests.
Fire can not exist under water for the simple reason that there is no air for it. See, fire is actually breaking of chemical bonds of various gases (basically hydrocarbons) in the atmosphere.
A mage producing a flame is incorrect per se, in my opinion, he produces a large amount of heat in a concentrated volume which oxidizes particles surrounding it to produce a fire.
Underwater, the mage should be able to produce the heat but will expend more energy to make it travel in water towards his target, water being a non-conductor.
My guess is that making a flame in a bubble of air underwater is impossible as over time the particles present in the flame will be oxidized and thus extinguishing the flame . There's also the possibility that the bubble may burst as soon as it is formed due to the fact that the water will apply pressure (proportional to depth) on it from all directions as well as the heat produced inside will make the air expand rapidly.
We're talking about magic, here. Magic does not exist in the realm of science; it is completely separate from reasonable thought. This is a setting in which a person can spontaneously be turned into a sheep via someone's force of will. The molecular bonds, the biology, and every other force at work in the universe simply doesn't enter into it.
The "fire" could actually be a tear in the fabric of reality looking into the Firelands, sent careening at a foe. The water molecules could be continuously changed into carbon and hydrogen at the rate the fire travels. The water could just be on fire. Magic doesn't make sense- It exists outside of logic.
... In summation, I agree with Grak. Whatever visual you choose is fine. Underwater fire, boiling water, or otherwise, as long as it isn't OP.
As was already said, the fire underwater isn't really fire. The magical fire requires nothing to survive except the arcane energy fueling the spell. That being said a magical fire won't spread unless the mage wills it that way and it will burn until the energy put into the spell is used up. Why it appears as fire probably has something to do with the heat being produced.
Shane Wrote:Underwater, the mage should be able to produce the heat but will expend more energy to make it travel in water towards his target, water being a non-conductor.
Actually, only the pure H2O isn't a conductor. In the water from the nature, there is no pure water. Usually, there are minerals and stuff, which actually are conductors. This is what conducts electricity in normal water, actually. Not the water itself, but the impurities in it.
We're talking about magic, here. Magic does not exist in the realm of science; it is completely separate from reasonable thought. This is a setting in which a person can spontaneously be turned into a sheep via someone's force of will. The molecular bonds, the biology, and every other force at work in the universe simply doesn't enter into it.
....
Justifying fireballs in water by saying that magic defies logical reasoning would have been fine if we had a reference in lore of someone being able to produce fireballs underwater, being unable to find that, we have to come up with valid reasoning ourselves. Say, a mage can turn a human into a sheep, then should be he able to turn him into a rat or any other animal? (I donno if its possible, my lore's weak) We can't simply justify that simply by saying that since its magic, its possible to do so.
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Off-topic
Spoiler:
dastmo Wrote:
Shane Wrote:Underwater, the mage should be able to produce the heat but will expend more energy to make it travel in water towards his target, water being a non-conductor.
Actually, only the pure H2O isn't a conductor. In the water from the nature, there is no pure water. Usually, there are minerals and stuff, which actually are conductors. This is what conducts electricity in normal water, actually. Not the water itself, but the impurities in it.
You are confusing conduction of electricity with that of heat. Conduction of electricity doesn't take place simply due to the presence of minerals, it is the breakage the ionic bonds present in the salts dissolved in water, which then produce an electric current.
I see no point in making a fireball underwater because it would sap so much energy you would most likely barely be able to swim. Since I'm pretty sure, making a fireball underwater would take more energy to cast than one on dry land.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just expressing an opinion.
Let us not forget that in reality: fish breathe oxygen. Its in the water. Sure, they have to use special equipment to get it... But... Yeah. Oxygen is trapped in water. Also, we are forgetting flares that burn under water (sure, based on chemical reaction, but still "flame")...
So yeah. I feel it is viable. Depending on your mage's personality and skill level of course. And if you are a warlock pretending to be a fire mage... Its gonna be a long shot. :P
