(If something has been written on this before...forgive me. *Hangs head in shame.* I was bored, and thought it might just be something I could contribute to the community aside from my lurking of Off-Topic. *Cough.*)
Something has come to my attention in the passed couple of days that I've seen, not necessarily on CotH, but on other art/writing sites that I go to. It's nagged at me before in the past as well, and I thought I might write up a little something about the infamous "critique." A lot of people seem to make rather brash critiques these days. Now, if any artists or writers out there are like me, they go into a nerd rage if someone makes an unproductive comment on something they worked hard on. SO. Let's get down to it, shall we?
Let's first look at the types of critiques, and why they are good or bad.
Spoiler:
This was terrible and I hated reading through it. I had to force myself to read it to the very end, and even that didn't make it any easier.
...What's wrong with this picture? Besides the fact that it makes you want to punch a kitten? Well, for one, this wasn't -constructive criticism.- It's rude, unnecessary, and you didn't even tell the person what they did wrong. It's best to avoid commenting on someone's work if this is the only thing that you can think of saying.
Spoiler:
Work on your spelling and grammar. I had a hard time following where the plot was going, and a hard time of figuring out who was speaking.
This is an improvement, and perhaps intentions were good, but it only points out the negative aspects of what you've read. It also sounds a bit like the person is demanding that it be fixed, rather than suggesting. Makes the critic sound a little arrogant and apathetic, doesn't it? You have to remember that a person's work is their own work, and they can take or leave your criticism. You want them to consider improvement, however, which is why an ideal critique would be one as follows:
Spoiler:
I really love the color scheme you used in this. The way you used complementary colors makes them stand out so much more vibrantly. I also -adore- the way that you draw eyes. They look so bright and really give personality to the character that you're drawing.
One thing I would suggest working on is the hands. I know that a lot of people have a hard time with hands, and I'm victim to this myself. It might help to try drawing a square for the palm, then lines for the fingers before you flesh the hands out. Also don't be afraid to look at your own hand for reference, to see how your fingers bend and how your wrist turns. All in all, though, you did a very nice job on getting the proportions right.
See? That's a lot nicer of a critique, isn't it? You start off with what you like about it, suggest what might need improvement, then end on a nice note. When you suggest what they need to work on, it also helps to give an example of how it could be executed, like I mentioned with the hand. It's good to try and have a balance of positive and negative.
- - -
Well. Now that you have a view on how critiques work, the first thing you might want to look for is if the person outwardly says that they wish for feedback. Comments, critiques, et cetera. Of course, this is only speaking from the point of view of someone who has written something on the Storylines or In-Character forums, or somewhere else they may have posted their writing or art. Everyone likes positive comments, so if you're not sure if they want a critique or not, and if you didn't like something that they wrote, you can do one of two things:
1. Don't comment. Simple as that!
2. Leave a polite comment pointing out the things that you did like about it. People like knowing what they did that made you like it, so instead of just saying "it was good," mention the parts that really struck you.
Spoiler:
You have a very firm grasp on keeping the story flowing smoothly. I love the way you wrote the dialogue as well! It makes the conversation seem very realistic.
3. If you're insistent on critiquing, you can always ask first if the person would like some suggestions on how to improve on their writing or art.
Spoiler:
I liked it! The way you wrote this painted some very vivid imagery. I can see one or two small things that might need improvement, and if you'd like I could show you where they are and what they are, but otherwise this was a very fun post to read.
- - -
Please remember that this is just my opinion of how to write constructive, polite critiques. Might help some of our other forum members to feel more confident about commenting on other peoples' work and character profiles and what-not. Anyway, that's all for now! I hope you enjoyed reading, and if anyone has anything they'd like to add or any questions they'd like to pose, please do feel free to comment!
Grakor456 Wrote:This post was horrible, and I had to force myself to read the contents. I feel like I wasted several minutes of my life, and demand them back.
I'm so kidding. Good job, Kiffles!
I want the several seconds of my life I wasted reading that back. Now.
Damn you, Grak.. I was gonna do the first insulting post. >=(
Frogspawned: RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Frogspawned: Frogspawned flips a table.
Frogspawned: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
I really disagree with this topic. From what I've read, it feels like we need to pour sugar on anything we're saying; when really as long as you're not slandering the artist/author personally and justifying what you don't like, there shouldn't be an issue. You've gone from "I don't like this and heres why you awful person" to "I like it, but it needs improvements". Yes that is polite, but its not honest. There is way you can do both, and not liking something =/= liking something. Its like me saying, "I love this, but unfortunately it seems as if your skull was knocked into your brain a few hundred times, so its terrible... but I love it." It does not mean the same thing. Now I'm not saying you can go ahead and say, "This is total shit, the colors are all wrong.", but at least know you're entitled to a negative opinion just as much as someone is entitled to a positive opinion. If you don't like it, be open about it, but hold some restraints. Thats all I gotsa say bout dis'.
Also, yes, or you could just not comment at all... or if its actually good just compliment it, I DUNNO!
Gojira Wrote:I really disagree with this topic. From what I've read, it feels like we need to pour sugar on anything we're saying; when really as long as you're not slandering the artist/author personally and justifying what you don't like, there shouldn't be an issue. You've gone from "I don't like this and heres why you awful person" to "I like it, but it needs improvements". Yes that is polite, but its not honest. There is way you can do both, and not liking something =/= liking something. Its like me saying, "I love this, but unfortunately it seems as if your skull was knocked into your brain a few hundred times, so its terrible... but I love it." It does not mean the same thing. Now I'm not saying you can go ahead and say, "This is total shit, the colors are all wrong.", but at least know you're entitled to a negative opinion just as much as someone is entitled to a positive opinion. If you don't like it, be open about it, but hold some restraints. Thats all I gotsa say bout dis'.
Also, yes, or you could just not comment at all... or if its actually good just compliment it, I DUNNO!
I think what she's getting at is that if you're completely negative, you just kill the person's motivation to do anything, especially fix their work. With you saying "Wow, this is not good at all." And going on to create a list of things wrong with it, without one positive thing in there... what's that doing for the person? You basically insulted their writing, and with you doing that, honestly to me, it makes you seem like you think you're better than the author/artist. Sure, you can be negative all you want, but if all you're going to do is nitpick, sometimes it's better not even commenting. And no, honestly I don't see it as "I love this, but unfortunately it seems as if your skull was knocked into your brain a few hundred times, so its terrible... but I love it." That's just lying. Obviously you don't like it. She's not saying to LIE to the person just so you can point out the bad things.
If you like some things and not others, point out the good and the bad, in a non-threatening 'tone'. 100% negativity kills motivation to do anything else. For most people, anyway. Yes, there are some that see that and say "Oh man I should work harder!" but I don't think many people are like that. She's also not saying 'pour sugar on it' she's saying Don't be an asshole to people just because you don't fully enjoy their work. You could just as simply say "I don't doubt your ability to write at all, it looks nice, but this isn't my cup of tea. Perhaps you could put a little work on <etc. etc.>" But just coming out and saying in a 'nice tone' "This is bad. You need to work on <list>." Like I said, it does -nothing- for people.
That's how I took it anyway. So yes. I like the post, Kiffles, and agree with what you said 100%. ^.^
Frogspawned: RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
Frogspawned: Frogspawned flips a table.
Frogspawned: (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
It really can depend from person to person. Some people prefer if you tell them what they could improve on a nicer more sugar coated way, some people prefer if you're just polite about your choice of words and some prefer when it's straight out blunt honesty.
I agree that it is very demoralizing if you've worked on something for a while and all you get is;This is wrong, that is wrong, and that too for that matter.. Or something along those lines. But what some artists get use to is being praised for spewing out the same shit over and over again. I knew an artist on another forum who kept doing the same kind of pictures(same poses, same style of clothes, same characters.) over and over and over again. She wasn't improving in the least and as defence against why she never shaded anything she complained on how long it took her to do it, and she had a tablet. I had no sympathy for her seeing as she'd be whipping out a few sketches everyday that she hadn't put effort into, not to mention the fact that if anyone put forward any critism she would instantly go into a "No! I can't keep drawing ... I've been so demoralized. My feelings are so hurt." mode. Now I can understand why some artists can feel that way when really harsh, or plain flaming, critique is thrown their way, but when they get any critique at all? I just find that, excuse me harsh as it may sound, pathetic.
You should be polite when telling an artist your opinion on their work, but at the same time you need to remember to not sugarcoat it to the amount that the artist feels like they don't need to improve, cause they're getting praise right where they're at. If someone is an artist worth of your time then they'll actually want to improve, not just say that they want to and then put not effort what so ever into their work, expecting praise.
When I say artists I don't mean people who have been drawing, or writing, or maybe played somekind of instrument, for years. And artist to me is someone who has picked up one of these creative crafts and is ready to learn, wants to learn, yearns to learn, and they will always be getting my praise and advice/critique. :3
A recently started Sonic forum for all ages and shapes. We discuss both old and new Sonic stuff, but by no means keep ourselves on just that area. We're a community of gamers, artists, role players and the like.
Well I'm not going to lie to someone and say I like it, when I don't. I can say, "I don't like it and here are some things to work on," without sounding like an ass just as easily as saying, "I like it, but here are some things to work on." The big difference between the two is honesty. Even then, it shouldn't matter if I like it or not unless I'm like the President of the World and Art.
Gojira Wrote:Well I'm not going to lie to someone and say I like it, when I don't. I can say, "I don't like it and here are some things to work on," without sounding like an ass just as easily as saying, "I like it, but here are some things to work on." The big difference between the two is honesty. Even then, it shouldn't matter if I like it or not unless I'm like the President of the World and Art.
Nobody said you had to lie, the point Kiffles is trying to get across is that you point out the good things as well. Not just the bad. You can have that harsh (in my eyes at least) attitude and say that but the other person might actually care about people their opinions. I agree with Piken that you would just be killing the motivation, especially when you worked hard on something. It might not look much to you, but for the person who wrote it, it can be something really special.
Just mah two coppers.
Quote:Perhaps one day, at a new sight,
We will search again for that light.
Hold it close, between our arms,
Listen again, to the priestess her charms.
Gojira Wrote:Well I'm not going to lie to someone and say I like it, when I don't. I can say, "I don't like it and here are some things to work on," without sounding like an ass just as easily as saying, "I like it, but here are some things to work on." The big difference between the two is honesty. Even then, it shouldn't matter if I like it or not unless I'm like the President of the World and Art.
I think what Kiffles was trying to say, to sum it up in the words of my mother, "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all."
Gojira Wrote:Well I'm not going to lie to someone and say I like it, when I don't. I can say, "I don't like it and here are some things to work on," without sounding like an ass just as easily as saying, "I like it, but here are some things to work on." The big difference between the two is honesty. Even then, it shouldn't matter if I like it or not unless I'm like the President of the World and Art.
I think what Kiffles was trying to say, to sum it up in the words of my mother, "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all."
Or that.. Picked up a different point then, I hate argumenting on the forums. :mrgreen:
Quote:Perhaps one day, at a new sight,
We will search again for that light.
Hold it close, between our arms,
Listen again, to the priestess her charms.
I've always held the stern belief that you should never criticize someone else's work openly unless you are the master of whatever the hell you are criticizing. My mentality's always been, "Yeah, ya know, that drawing / writing / storyline might not be the most epic shit ever....but can I honestly do any better?". More than likely, I can't. So I figure it'd just be downright hypocritical of me to say "YOUR SHIT SUCKS AND YOU NEED TO IMPROVE ON FUKKEN EVERYTHING!!!!" to someone. Therefore, I don't.
Unless, of course, said art is being passed off as "Professional", in which case f**k THE RADIO AND TELEVISION AND EVERY THING MAINSTREAM CULTURE PISSES OUT~! WOO~!
THAT BEING SAID
.....if someone asks me to criticize their work.....
I'll be as brutally honest as I possibly can. I'm a cynic by nature, so I'm used to ignoring the good and just pointing out the bad. I'll crush the work. I'll tear it apart. I'll point out every zit and blip and flaw to the artist's face. Because I don't think people can really improve if you're not completely honest with your feelings, like Gojira is trying to say.
I can understand that it's nice to have common courtesy and respect....but honestly....
To the artists who get their souls crushed by the criticisms of random people, I just gotta say toughen up. The moment you pick up that paintbrush or start typing those words or strumming that guitar, you have to be completely prepared to have your work stomped on by the cold, careless feet of society's drones. It's like with any game or sport or skill. You'll never learn how to get better until you learn how to take the crushing blows of defeat.
I don't have any sympathy for people who get completely demoralized by criticism. Problem lies with them, not the people spouting off.
The thing to remember is that most of us are not professionals and thus are not seeking any 'crushing' criticism. Such things generally destroy morale and enthusiasm long before they are taken for improvement.
When teaching (which is rather the point of criticising) it is much easier to 'sugar coat' a criticism so as to encourage growth and betterment, after all if our teachers in elementary, middle, or high school pointed out our mistakes cruelly and from an uncaring position many students would suffer. I'm not saying we should baby, I'm saying we should be decent and kind. Two values accepted world wide.
All in all, I think it's a good guide.
"The time has come," the walrus said, "to talk of many things: Of shoes and ships - and sealing wax - of cabbages and kings" - Lewis Carrol
Gojira Wrote:Well I'm not going to lie to someone and say I like it, when I don't. I can say, "I don't like it and here are some things to work on," without sounding like an ass just as easily as saying, "I like it, but here are some things to work on." The big difference between the two is honesty. Even then, it shouldn't matter if I like it or not unless I'm like the President of the World and Art.
I think what Kiffles was trying to say, to sum it up in the words of my mother, "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all."
So the only time I can critique things is when I actually like it? Which means I critique things I don't like on something that I like. Okay, thanks, thats all I needed to know. [/common sense]
You managed to both miss the point and fail to follow the maxim all in one fell swoop. The point was that if you are unable to find a way to say something in a way that isn't either blatantly rude, uncouth, or immature, you likely should say nothing at all.
I will admit that I freely agree with Krent -- if the individual asks for criticism, you're open to criticize in any way you see fit. If not, common courtesy (a relative of common sense, perhaps?) dictates that you follow the rules of etiquette.
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