REFORM!

[Ben]

Sasail, I hadn't even thought past getting this accepted, but yes. That would be a great idea I think. During the grunt questionnaire a question could be added asking if the player has previous experience with forums, being a GM ingame (using ArcEmu) or working with wikis. The answers that were positive could be archived and reviewed when a new GM is needed for a specific purpose.

[Piken]

I know I left and all, but to respond to Grakor: Um, excuse me, 'good sir', but I was there through everything that happened there. Yes, I was on Secrettom's side through it, and would still be if it was still raging on. The reason he was demoted was because he stepped up to you far too many times, and you didn't like that. And of course, if someone steps up to a red name, that means that they are trying to start drama, and clearly are 'over stressed'. Which led to his demotion and my stepping down. And.. if I may.. Why do you even care? I thought you left and disappeared for some long amount of time, not really doing anything but still manage to maintain your admin status, even though you do absolutely nothing.

And to Hawk: I have to say I'm DEEPLY hurt by what you said. I vouched for Lucelia when I was a GM because he showed the ability know and enforce rules when they need to be enforced(when others can't stomach it).

Lethys, is tied in with me, where we started up, I think, one of the biggest, most successful guilds on the server, that started on and was doing one of the longest, most in-depth and very deep going storyline and managed to actually begin reclaiming an underground technological wonder of a city. Events that you've participated in and even helped at times, so again, I am extremely hurt that you can even say something like that about us. Also considering how much we did together.

Ben, I hope this goes through and am truly sorry that it's becoming a drama thread. But I couldn't let this go. Good luck to you, sir, and kudos for having the guts to even bring it up.

[Knock]

I was an officer in a long term multi-gaming clan for several months (I stepped down about a month ago, couldn't afford the subscriptions to an MMO we were planning to play as our main game), and I agree with what Hawk is saying about the players only seeing one side of the argument. Before I became an officer, there was a fairly big drama event where a player got kicked, which resulted in a few of his closer friends leaving too. As I was an ordinary player, I saw it as being unfair and I felt that the officers could have dealt with it better. However, when I was promoted and could access the officer forums, I came to realize that the person who had been kicked had been rightfully so. There was a long history of warnings, issues and other general mishaps that had been building up over several months and the player in question ignored. If I hadn't been promoted, I never would have found that out.

My point is, it's impossible for most players to see both sides of any argument when it comes to forums in a hierarchical setting. All we can do is trust the GMs to be able to make the right choices, which are often hard to do.

Not to say, however, that we shouldn't question their judgements, just that we should be mindful of both sides of the story.

On the note of reforming, I haven't been on the server for too long so it's difficult to judge the GMs' cycle of promotion and demotion. If it's not already the case, then I fully support keeping tabs on a GM's performance in general, and making any changes necessary. At the moment, I don't feel that there should be anything to complain about, I think for unpaid volunteers they dedicate a lot of their personal time to something that they don't have to do, and we should respect that, and not assume that they'll be able to help all the people all the time. Then again, as I said I haven't been here too long so it's hard for me to say.

[sasail]

Well rather than everyone getting all a'flustered as I think many of us a guilty of, let's look at this with a level head. I'm all for having what Ben suggested there. Even an application section. Shun me if you will but I do feel there is some bias with the GM team. It's going to be inevitable. What we need to do instead of squabbling is think of a solution and a way in which this can be lowered.

Will we need to inspect EVERY GMs work over the last few months? I don't know but. What I do know is that there are some good ideas behind the rage posts thrown in this thread.

[Hawk]

Hawk: The playerbase are the people the GM team are meant to be serving. That you asked this question regretably disappoints me. I still respect you, of course, but I am disappointed by that statement. The GM team are never above the players in anything but responsibility. The administrators are. The GMs are, on the server, nothing but players with added responsibilities.

What question? :o Not trying to be snarky I'm actually just wondering what you were referencing to. But GMs DO have authority over players, and admin's have authority over us. Enforcing rules is actually part of our job, amongst all the other stuff. I'm not trying to say that players are inferior at all, but that's just how the hierarchy is here: GMs hold authority over players because it's one of our responsibilities that you just talked about.

But do I think this is useful? Not at all. Not because of some fear of being demoted, but because staff come and go because of actual reasons, and again, we have our private forum, so people don't see all that we do. I've done quite a lot of questionnaires, but you guys don't see that. Cressy does a truckton of intros and everyone sees it. Get what I mean?

[Hawk]

And to Hawk: I have to say I'm DEEPLY hurt by what you said. I vouched for Lucelia when I was a GM because he showed the ability know and enforce rules when they need to be enforced(when others can't stomach it).

Apologies for double posting, but:

I'll just clarify that I didn't mean you 3 were promoted just because you were more popular than others, don't get me wrong. But my main point was GMs aren't promoted solely for popularity, and you guys were more well known amongst the playerbase before promotion. Heck, I remember your promotion thread being 2 pages long - everyone else's was just 1 page. XD

EDIT: Edited statement little.

[Grakor456]

Grakor, are you going to ignore what I said earlier or not?

What are you looking for an answer to?

Also, I never intentionally accused you or anyone else in this thread of drama-mongering. If it was interpreted as such, I apologize now. However, I stand by everything I've said.

Um, excuse me, 'good sir', but I was there through everything that happened there. Yes, I was on Secrettom's side through it, and would still be if it was still raging on. The reason he was demoted was because he stepped up to you far too many times, and you didn't like that. And of course, if someone steps up to a red name, that means that they are trying to start drama, and clearly are 'over stressed'.

I wasn't going to go this in-depth with this, but if you insist. Lethys was demoted not because he was "stepping up" to me. He was demoted because he argued in an overly inflammatory and aggressive manner, and repeatedly did so after being told to stop. After I long stopped arguing with him, he continued to attack me and be the cause of a good amount of GM-centered drama, and when he let that drama spill into the public forums, I had had enough and pushed for his demotion.

Those are the facts. We still have the posts in question on record, as well as the post I made on the day of his demotion explaining the reasons.

Edit: As for why I care? I still co-own this server, and I have memory of what happened during these events. I have no intention of letting anyone spread misinformation of what happened then.

[Ben]

Can this thread please be brought back to what it orginally was. Arguaments for an overhaul of the GM team pending inspection into whether they should remain. Frankl, it doesn't concern me in the slightest if people are hurt by what others say. (Yes, I have derailed my own thread a little, but let's bring it on back.)

[sasail]

Alright? Is my suggestion still valid? Do you think we can work on this? Do we have an idea going on and does anyone else have anything to add on it?


... I'm going to goto sleep now.

[Jeff]

I think the system its self needs an overhaul more over than anything. As we have it right now, the GMs go from grunt to having a truck load of power and responcibilities dumped on their plates. The trial thing was good in practice but I think we need an intermediate phase. Maybe 2. After grunt, I think people who've attributed to the server, showed consistance in keeping things in check, and order, should be promoted to like... Shaman or something. Then a step above that if they go above and beyond, and show they are really devoted to helping the server and be like... Farseer rank, or something really cool but with no actual power, just a status. Then I think we can wean them into the position of Trial GM and so-on. I'm not going to name any names, but I've seen first-hand many accounts of GMs (I'll take screen shots from now on) who use flash the GM title to get their way, and even if they are wrong or are refusing to look anything up. I think if we build them up slowly, before giving the people power, they may be a little more relaxed. Power corrupts you know. Anyways, that is my two-bits. I've got an entrance exam to go take. See you in a few hours.

[Kiffles]

For those who remember it, perhaps consider bringing back the Hero system. I always thought it was a nice middle between Grunt and GM.

[Amerason]

I think the system its self needs an overhaul more over than anything. As we have it right now, the GMs go from grunt to having a truck load of power and responcibilities dumped on their plates. The trial thing was good in practice but I think we need an intermediate phase. Maybe 2. After grunt, I think people who've attributed to the server, showed consistance in keeping things in check, and order, should be promoted to like... Shaman or something. Then a step above that if they go above and beyond, and show they are really devoted to helping the server and be like... Farseer rank, or something really cool but with no actual power, just a status. Then I think we can wean them into the position of Trial GM and so-on. I'm not going to name any names, but I've seen first-hand many accounts of GMs (I'll take screen shots from now on) who use flash the GM title to get their way, and even if they are wrong or are refusing to look anything up. I think if we build them up slowly, before giving the people power, they may be a little more relaxed. Power corrupts you know. Anyways, that is my two-bits. I've got an entrance exam to go take. See you in a few hours.

I truly hope people pay attention to this.

[sasail]

For those who remember it, perhaps consider bringing back the Hero system. I always thought it was a nice middle between Grunt and GM.

Well how would a hero be selected because we're getting complains that the GMs are all chosen through the relationships they have with eachother. How would we ensure that these heroes come from somewhere completely neutral? Selected by the playerbase perhaps?

[Knock]

Sasail, I don't think it's a good idea to have an election. Then only the popular people would get through, not necessarily the ones who could benefit the server the most.

And I like the idea of more ranks, as well as the idea of putting GM experience in the grunt questionaire. Maybe merge the two ideas in the creation of a new rank between grunt and trial GM, with no powers obviously, but it'd only be given to people who've really proven themselves as being dedicated to the server.

[Grakor456]

Whenever I bring up the possibility of a GM application forum, the possibility gets shot down. The majority seem to prefer hand-picking the potentials, but I've never been opposed to an application system so long as a "Don't call us, we'll call you" policy is maintained and certain restrictions are put in place (having played for so long, a grunt, yadda yadda.)

I think Heroes would be a step back. We removed the Hero rank because in truth the Heroes never actually did anything, and it was just a cause for elitism within the community.