Suicide Resurrection

[Raven776]

It depends on how you define suicide.
Is a man saying "Kill me" when the knife is already in his chest suicide? That's what this all seems like to me. Gat didn't do it himself, and I do not believe he would have done it if he had to.

This is arguably murder, but then again that's for GMs to decide.

[Wuvvums]

It depends on how you define suicide.
Is a man saying "Kill me" when the knife is already in his chest suicide? That's what this all seems like to me. Gat didn't do it himself, and I do not believe he would have done it if he had to.

This is arguably murder, but then again that's for GMs to decide.

Honestly enough, I have heard arguments like this before. I don't exactly want to use this reference because it's a bit extreme, but some hard-core conservatives had suggested that those who jumped from the twin towers on 9/11 were in fact committing suicide by those acts. It's less "not wanting to live" and more like avoiding excessive suffering.

[DaveM]

The souls of those who commit suicide can't come back because they wanted death. They are dead spirits that want to be dead.

The only question remaining is: Can a dead spirit change its mind?

I'd argure that spirit has no mind to speak of - it is the non-physical identity of the person without body and without per-se intellect - so reasoning shouldn't work for the most part. The conserved state of spirit is what lingers and not the full identity of the person. I'd argue that actual intellect and identity come back only once the spirit becomes realigned with the brain if the spirit was life-wanting and ressurection was possible. If one was convinced at the time of death, I'd say they remain spritually convinced within death.

Even if, seeing that shamans or such can do a lot with regards to the dead in a fantasy world, one could get in touch with the spirit and convince it, I'd say it's a bad precedent. GMs shouldn't have to decide between good-convincing-sucidal-spirits and bad-convincing-suicidal-spirit. Over enough time, if convincing worked, anyone could be convinced and that'd actually leave a door open for people argueing over undoing close to any suicide.

[Cressy]

And this is why people need to think through character deaths. I have said it before in game and I have said it on the forums before. If you want your character to be dead enough to actually have someone kill it, then no, you shouldn't be able to resurrect them because 'someone wants you to rp with them now'. This is what we mean when we say 'There are consequences to your decisions'. Now in no way are we trying to hinder someone from roleplaying, but we want you to think it through more thoroughly. If you made it so your character wanted to die, and asked, begged, pleaded to be killed, then they should remain being killed.

Plus, the more times your character has died the more physical/emotional/mental ramifications it will have. Do you want to play a character with paralysis of the legs and arms, without the ability to see or function emotionally properly? Probably not.

[Raven776]

Well, we have to understand this is a fantasy setting and not the real life.
Are spirits free thinking? I'd assume so, but never assume. Ghosts appear in the game, and you can talk to them at certain instances, but that's very rare and hard to really say whether you're just fueling their afterlife feelings or changing it.
As far as this OOCly goes...it wouldn't seem that Gat killed himself as much as someone killed him. Could have have done it himself? No. Legally? Murder. Assisted suicide is giving someone assistance but not physically interfering or helping. Murder is the one holding the knife.

It's also up to him as to what kind of character he wants to roleplay hun. Paralysis or not.

[Cressy]

That may be true, but people need consequences. That is why we have rules and the like. If we let everyone do free-willy-nilly then chaos would happen.

Not saying this is that extreme, but honestly, when I was a n00b, and when I say n00b, I mean N00B....There was a guy who killed his character about a dozen times in a week. Now, why you ask would someone do that? Because my character Sprinkles didn't want to date his tauren. Am I kidding? No. Ask people from the time.

...But to the point, if people keep putting their characters in the situation to be killed, to kill themselves or whatever, then they need to 'reap what they sow' ?

Edit: I hate to be the downer all the time, but people need to really think things through. People don't... Ever.

[Piroska]

I think that it's important to keep in mind why these constraints are currently in placed. Rensin did touch upon them, but I'd like the take the opportunity to reiterate.

While we can all most likely come up with logical, lore-based reasons why exceptions can and should occur, the current rule barring resurrections for suicides exists for a distinct reason. Character death is something that we cannot always avoid; while we can limit the roleplay in which we engage to prevent such an occurrence, this has the potential of greatly stifling roleplay. As a result, character resurrection is a possibility.

However, suicide is something that the individual -- the character's player -- dictates himself. It is something that he chooses to apply to his character. To claim that circumstances drove a player to force his character to commit suicide is an excuse; there's always some way to avoid this conclusion even if it requires thinking outside of the box or something unconventional.

Two things leave me with the belief that this should not be allowed:

• MrCandlejack -- Gat's player -- calls this a suicide. Even though another player's character killed Gat, he considers it a suicide.
  
• It seems that, overwhelmingly, MrCandlejack is not the one who feels that this exception should be made. Instead, players who have roleplayed with his characters feel that Gat should be allowed to return to life. He believes that his character's death is right; I fail to see how this is such a concern for others.

[Krent]

Interesting discussion. It may be a little off topic, but I'd like to ask a question about the idea of martyrdom.

If a character martyrs them-self to save others in a spur-of-the-moment sacrifice, does that constitute as a suicide? The classic example is a soldier throwing himself on a live grenade in order to save the lives of those around him. Would a character who died in this manner be denied their second resurrection?

Personally, if we're sticking to the "two strikes your out" death policy, I don't have any problems with people reviving themselves. Revives are limited and there's a lengthy process you have to go through in order to get it. I do remember the days where lone orcs would charge the gates of Stormwind and rack up 15+ deaths a week, and I understand that's one of the reasons why this death system is put in place.

But...if we're limited in the amounts of resurrections we can have, and place large IC restrictions on those who get them (physical paralysis, mental instability, etc), what's the harm in letting someone revive their suicidal character? Sure, it might not be the most realistic thing and is certainly a bit illogical for the player to suddenly change their mind on that character. But I don't believe the slippery slop argument that it'll lead to doom and chaos.

Unless the whole death system got changed to give unlimited revives while I was away and I'm currently talking out of my dick.

[Piroska]

The wiki article regarding character resurrection was recently updated to reflect just that change, Krent! According to the roleplay article:

There is no limit on how often a character can be resurrected. But if the character's life is tossed away (the character kills themself, has another murder them, etc.) then there is no resurrection.

[Krent]

Oh. Well in the case, I'm a moron.

Carry on!

[Azheron]

People don't... Ever.

You shouldn't exaggerate like that, it makes me feel as if you're generalazing all of us into that category. At least to me. When you say "People" and "Ever".

:/

Anyways... err... carry on and that.

[Jonoth]

There was a movie out some years back called Bulworth. In it, a politician takes out a hit contract on his own life, and gets an insurance policy that will pay money out to his daughter. Over the course of the movie, he revives his career, and decides he wants to live. I'm bringing this particular movie up because it was after the main character put his life in someone else's hands, he found a reason to live and keep going. If the hitman had gotten to him first, then he would not have found this reason.

The character being discussed in this thread found his reason after death. Giving he has a very strong reason to live I don't think he'd necessarily kill himself again if he got the chance to live. Also, if he really wanted to die THAT much, he'd have killed himself and not put the blood on someone else's hands.

THAT SAID....from a storytelling standpoint, I find that resurrections often demean the reason why the character died. If say a character dies making a noble sacrifice, it just doesn't feel as noble if they could just come back to life every time, and the importance of the event loses gravity.

So in short, I don't think the situation was a true suicide, because when the act is put in someone else's hands the intent to die can be called into question. However, from a story aspect, though it is tough to maintain death, or even to an extent a permanent injury, it can be important to the story to remain in that state. And since the character's friends are able to still speak to him, he can maintain an important part of their story as well.

[Harmonic]

People don't... Ever.

You shouldn't exaggerate like that, it makes me feel as if you're generalazing all of us into that category. At least to me. When you say "People" and "Ever".

:/

Anyways... err... carry on and that.

Is it really needed to be so pedantic over how she said something? She's conveying a point, not saying outright that noone ever thinks about stuff, geeze.


See, we tend to make our rules fairly blunt. You had the character killed.

There is no limit on how often a character can be resurrected. But if the character's life is tossed away (the character kills themself, has another murder them, etc.) then there is no resurrection.

Piroska linked it once, so I'll do so again. I think I'll lock this, and leave it at that. Arguments of semantics aside:

Killing your character off by suicide/asking others to "kill you" means you can't be rezzed. Sorry guys, but this is why it should be thought out beforehand.