Battle System / Alternate Resurrection

[garrett]

Well, Grakor said this should go in it's own thread, so I'm posting this here for a discussion.

While Grakor named this as a battle system, I was thinking more of an alternate method of IC resurrection.

Here is the previous post quoted.

The last thing I want to speak about is the way deaths are handled. Long ago I used to play on a Wheel of Time server, setup using Neverwinter Nights. I was new to the place, and I joined up with these guards who served the White Tower. One thing led to another, and I was grinding levels in a kobold infested set of caverns. Near the back is a trap door that opens into more caverns, but it's one way.

Now, the problem I had was that I was exiting this complex, I came upon a Child of the Light slaughtering something or other. ((For those of you who don't know, White Tower affiliates are treated as witches and such, while Children of the Light are like the fanatics that wish to burn them at the stake.))

I tried to flee back into the caves to hide, and another member of the White Tower came with me. A GM controlled Child of the Light, along with the player one, tracked us inside, and captured us.

My character was put to the question at their encampment, basically I was tortured to a "confession". It got a little too intense for me, because I thought I was losing my character. Anyways, we wrapped the RP up, and I was burned alive at the stake.

Now, what did all this ramble accomplish? Well it leads me to the results of my little excursion. After I was burned alive, I was revived by the GM, teleported close to the White Tower, and given several levels worth of XP for the RP.

As a whole situation was RP'd as a random NPC guard of the White Tower had been captured and killed by the Children of the Light. OOCly, we all knew it happened to me. ICly, it was some poor no-name schmuck.

I mention this, because the system really appeals to me as a whole. When you think about it, it allows you for fully unrestricted RP, with little in the way of consequences to you character. A warrior for the Alliance could meet up and duel a Horde warrior to the death. The only trick is that the loser is considered to be another warrior, and that's how it should be roleplayed. So if the two encounter one another a second time, it's as if they never met.

In this manner, while it's a little unconventional, you can have all the full bloody feuding action of RP, without having to lose your custom characters, unless it's your choice to have it be an IC death for your character, at which you could step up and do the IC resurrection piece as normal.

Now for the reply I was going to make about things.

This is a good system in that it removes penalties from RP. I just think that players shouldn't be penalized for RP. If anything we want more roleplay to take place.

Specifically cross-faction RP. Without the penalty of death to your character, players could go up against the opposing faction more often. Personally if I didn't have to worry about my character getting wounded from dying or losing him entirely, I would go up against the rival factions more naturally.

That's mainly where this system came into play.

If my character, Sammael the human paladin, were to step up and battle against the Horde, he could very well die. Which is not really that fun when you come to think things through. If we didn't have profiles it's one thing. But to sit and come up with a well thought out profile, then suddenly to lose him, or to have him maimed or injured through death could ruin the entire concept.

Now bring in this system. Sammael battles against an orc warrior, we'll call him Thrall. The RP goes on for a half hour or so with the pair arguing, then the battle commences, upon which Sammael dies.

With the current system, I'm forced to wait a week, create a post to label Thrall as the one who killed me, the events leading up to the death, then add on something bad that happens to Sammael, such as scars, broken limbs, lost limbs, etc.

In the system I propose, you could still wait a week to revive him, just remove the rest of it. Thrall goes back to his comrades, telling them all about the pathetic human paladin he destroyed. Much honor is earned, they all applaud his heroic strength. ((Notice the paladin is unnamed here.))

Sammael resurrects, and it is treated more as an OOC incident for him. He may hear rumors about another paladin being killed by orcs, even going so far as to attending a ceremony in his honor. As a player, I know Sammael was the one that participated in that roleplay. As the character, I am saddened by the loss of my brother paladin.

Should Thrall and Sammael meet up again, it is played as if the RP between them never took place. They are meeting up again for the first time.

In this way, we have virtually an unlimited number of NPC's of varying races and classes.

I know I may have gone over some things more than once. xD I guess I ramble on occasion. I just wanted to make sure the entire thing was explained fully.

Anyways, this could just be a framework, I'm sure those with more experience on the server could take this idea and modify it to work within our version of Azeroth just as well.

[HeroLief]

Personally, I like this idea. But it could only really work for warriors and the like, as otherwise you get too detailed on character personalities.

[Maulbane]

I believe that yes, this could work. And it's a pretty great idea at that, I must say. It would make death more common in Azeroth (Something that should already be common, considering the world and the name) and, as stated, remove most inhibitions to RP cross-faction.

But there's only one thing, which is what Herolief says. Some characters are extremely unique (Alistus, who is a Dark Apothecary Necromancer Graven One last time I checked, or Maulbane, That Tauren Hunter who does the crazy crap). I don't know if we'd just say "A Forsaken was killed today" or not.

[Welden]

If approached and executed correctly, this is an awesome idea.

If a player wanted to RP somewhere, but did not want to risk their character, they could even go to that place planning to die and act as an NPC. I look forward to giving this a try the next time I can get in-game, which will be this Friday night.

[MrBubbles]

This is a good cop out if players are truly adamant on their characters not dying, and a good alternative to dispel OOC drama. But a character's death is not always a bad thing.

Character death generates RP all its own, especially if the character was already in a pre-standing relationship. Death is probably the most important event (and quite possibly the last event) in a person's life. It affects not only the character, but everyone around them.

Ever wonder why authors of books kill off characters that people love? It's to create positive drama. On this server, OOC drama in the form of people being too attached to their characters is just a side effect. Are we going to do away with the positive IC drama just to accommodate the negative OOC drama?

[Grakor456]

The one problem I have with this system is that it doesn't provide lasting RP for the loser. If X "dies," it just gets retconned, which works to progress the winner's story, but not the loser's.

I've always preferred the notion of "0 means forced retreat," where if someone loses they survive to fight another day. This can lead to rivalries and that sort of thing, and make it so that the fight's resolution has an impact on both sides, not just one.

[Welden]

I believe that all the ideas brought up in this thread are good ideas.

My question is this:

• Is there any rule stating that we can only act in one of these ways or can we choose for ourselves?

Depending on the situation, I would love to use all these ideas, but at different times, of course.

[Scout]

I agree with Grakor. I also think that this might work well in a situation where there's no attachment on either side, but as soon as some sort of storyline is implemented, it starts to be unusable.

Picture the following.

Guild Leader: Lothar, I want you to go to the Barrens and steal some supplies from the Horde! Watch yourself out there.

Lothar: Right-o.

Our hypothetical guild member, Lothar, travels to the Barrens. On the way to the supplies cache, a grunt named Orgrim spots him and charges him. They have a fight, and Lothar dies. Now, it's very hard for Lothar to come back and say:

Lothar: Hey Guild Leader dude, I went to go get supplies but I encountered a grunt and he slew one of our soldiers ferociously!

Guild Leader: I only sent one of you...

You see the problems. You can't pass it off as some random NPC who died, not without retconning, which I suppose is what this is all about anyway, but if it gets to be a more complex situation than this, then it'll start to become more of an issue than it's worth. This only really works with skirmishes, or any other violent situation where neither side has a storyline that they are fulfilling at the time.

[DrinkArizona]

I for one, firmly believe that if your character dies, there should be consequences. Why? Because if somebody dies, they DIE. Seriously, it's not world of teacraft.If I have a character that's in a bad situation, I'm prepared to die. My theory is: If you can launch yourself in dangerous RP, you better know how to handle when that RP backfires in your face and causes your character to die.Nobody is -forcing- you to take part in the dangerous RP in the first place. Because being too attached to your guy and not wanting him to die is..unfair. Especially in wars. Crap happens in wars.

[star2316]

It kinda depend on why the RP fight happen i think . If it something larger then the random meeting this idea give a few questions.

But these topic normal is hard since not everyone like to have they character die. Though i always asked myself ..is it needed for a character to die? . It give the victor the sense of wining but it also can generate OOC drama .

What if the loser just is knocked out and 'badly' wounded. The winner claim a item from the losser as a prize . (What item could be something both side agrees on ,or just some gold). Then the winner walk away and a little after the loser wake up in pain ,lost pride and find he/she miss a item of worth. This atlest in theory generate the sense of wining and loss, the looser also has a ICly reason to fear or plot later on .

Ofcourse such system demand people can be mature and RP out the loss instead of rushing after the one that beated them. Anyway just a quick idea i tossed up .

[DrinkArizona]

Though i always asked myself ..is it needed for a character to die? . It give the victor the sense of wining but it also can generate OOC drama .

It only causes OOC drama for the people that can't handle it, IMO.

What if the loser just is knocked out and 'badly' wounded. The winner claim a item from the losser as a prize . (What item could be something both side agrees on ,or just some gold). Then the winner walk away and a little after the loser wake up in pain ,lost pride and find he/she miss a item of worth. This atlest in theory generate the sense of wining and loss, the looser also has a ICly reason to fear or plot later on .

Ofcourse such system demand people can be mature and RP out the loss instead of rushing after the one that beated them. Anyway just a quick idea i tossed up .

Maybe. But how about this scenario? Your guy knows something dangerous to a certain criminal organization (That has come to conclusion through RP, of course) and they sent somebody to silence you. If they tried to kill you, and failed..wouldn't it be worse for them? Long story short: Because it's not realistic. I'm pretty sure that most of us are into heavy RP for many good reasons, one of them being realism.

[star2316]

Maybe. But how about this scenario? Your guy knows something dangerous to a certain criminal organization (That has come to conclusion through RP, of course) and they sent somebody to silence you. If they tried to kill you, and failed..wouldn't it be worse for them? Long story short: Because it's not realistic. I'm pretty sure that most of us are into heavy RP for many good reasons, one of them being realism.

As i did say it all kinda depend on why the fight happen and what scenario. This one might not even end with a death if we think about it , there is other option to try then plain killing really . One might be the criminal organization tries to press the character in question to join them and another outcome might be to put pressure on them and black mail them .

I agree if the character go to a extreme to poke the nose into dangerous areas then it likely more the case the end will be the death of someone.

[HeroLief]

But there's only one thing, which is what Herolief says. Some characters...

MAULBANE, STOP TALKING ABOUT ME! Creep.

This is a good cop out if players are truly adamant on their characters not dying, and a good alternative to dispel OOC drama. But a character's death is not always a bad thing.

Character death generates RP all its own, especially if the character was already in a pre-standing relationship. Death is probably the most important event (and quite possibly the last event) in a person's life. It affects not only the character, but everyone around them.

Ever wonder why authors of books kill off characters that people love? It's to create positive drama. On this server, OOC drama in the form of people being too attached to their characters is just a side effect. Are we going to do away with the positive IC drama just to accommodate the negative OOC drama?

This fits perfectly. Authors kill off characters because it does create drama and positive reactions (sometimes), however more so, it makes readers wonder, How is everyone going to survive without that character?

[Maulbane]

But there's only one thing, which is what Herolief says. Some characters...

MAULBANE, STOP TALKING ABOUT ME! Creep.

B... But... I... ...

FINE.

[garrett]

Ok, I'll try to respond to things as they came out.

:Herolief:
It could work really for any character. My character in the NWN example was unique. But her personality in the situation was left out. So this can apply to any character. If you have a Orc Shaman that's killed using this, it's RP'd as an unnamed Orc Shaman.

:Maulbane:
From my experience, no character played by a member is so intensely unique that there is none like him. In the case of the Dark Apothecary Necromancer Graven One, you wouldn't say that the deceased was one of those, instead you'd just label him as a Warlock or a Death Knight, whichever class the character uses from the game mechanics. In the case of those with multiple options, (which from the above you get a Dark Apothecary, Necromancer, and Graven One ((at least that's what I see when I look at it))) So you could just label them as a Necromancer. There's bound to be more than one Necromancer in Azeroth. As for the crazy Tauren Hunter, you just call it a Tauren Hunter.

As far as your other comment, rumors may or may not circulate. It depends on just how many witness the RP. If it's just the two of you, the discretion lies solely with the winner. They can talk about their feat or just let it lie.

:MrBubbles:
I didn't mean for this to entirely erase the current system, more of a union of things. If the character wants to die, they can elect to do things the old way. If they would rather do it using my system, then you could use that to kill off an NPC instead. This was more of a best of both worlds situation, to be allowed at the players discretion.

:Grakor:
In thinking about your post, I realize I did forget part of the NWN situation. As I said before, there was two of us from the White Tower, the one was captured and released, while I was tortured. However, afterwards I was given the option of having witnessed the capture of the "NPC" that was burned in my place, from a position in the hills nearby. I bore witness to her/my capture, and that was my part of the IC part of things.

However, for our purposes, there is always some way you can turn things to provide lasting RP. In some cases, it could be as another mentioned. "0HP means a tactical retreat" sort of thing. Or you can always have your character's RP as having been assaulted by an NPC of the race and class that you battled, but you managed to escape, which is something of the same thing. Which can in turn lead to an agression against that race, leading to future conflict. It really depends on the abilities of the person roleplaying, in how they take things.

Of course, they can always opt to sacrifice the roleplay that took place, it could be up to the person on how they take things.

:Scout:
I agree that in some cases, you simply cannot do this. However, given how things worked out with NWN, your story would probably have been taken in this manner afterwards.

In this case, the Guild Leader did not send Lothar, but one of the other members of the Guild. Since he did not return, it can be assumed from the dangerous aspects of the mission that something went wrong and he was captured or killed. Now you have the choice of whether to RP a recon mission to ascertain the whereabouts of the fictional member, drawing more people into the guild.

It's really all just a matter of how organized you can be. Often little mishaps like that can spawn into much greater plots. I mean, if Lothar was successful, no big deal, you had some RP, and can move on. But using the system I proposed, and failing, then you get more RP options to select from. Using the old way, you can of course have that same options, however Lothar will be dead and gone for a week, and when he returns he'll be weakened, crippled, or whatever the player elects to do with him.

Now in response to those that posted while I was typing this:

rinkArizona:
The thing I have with your post is simple. I originally posted this in the thing Grakor posted about people camping in Stormwind and cross faction roleplay being really low.

Your post specifically points out why this is so. Not many people want to spend a lot of time creating a character, only to be screwed over and lose their character. That is just not fun, and it's why a lot of people simply don't do cross faction RP. This was a solution to relax the restrictions and hopefully get the people out of Stormwind.

In another note regarding yet another RP server on NWN, City of Arabel. They don't have stuff where you can't revive yourself. Why? Because who wants to log in, get killed, and lose a character they have patiently crafted to their liking. Instead they are allowed to resurrect as often as they like. The only penalty is XP. From what I remember, it's roughly a third of the total you collect. Something like losing 1 level for every 3 you had. In a server where the highest level you can get is 12, that's saying something.

I cannot say this enough, there should never be a penalty for roleplay. All it does is discourage that form of RP from taking place again. What is the point of it in any case? So what if you are more knowledgeable about game mechanics and kill me, or you are lucky in the /roll thing and kill me. All it proves is that you are a better gamer than I am. There are no prizes to win, other than the fact that you can gloat and say you killed my character. Since it serves no purpose, why bother with it at all?

In your post about knowing the secrets of a dangerous criminal group, all that does is make you more of a threat to that group, and that should naturally lead to more attempts on your life. But that sort of thing gets really old, really fast. If you have plans for your character, only to have assassination attempts on you every time you log in.


I'm not really campaigning for an entire rule shift on this, just the inclusion of more options, and a relaxation of the rules regarding resurrection and wounding dead characters. To allow for more choice and less penalties.

I mean...changing your character due to an IC death is ok, but it should be optional, right? I just don't believe in penalizing RP, it should be the choice of the player, as long as it's reasonable.