Combat Systems and such

[pliantreality]

I've been rolling some stuff around in my head ever since my first combat event here at CoTH- The Regiment, the Spellslinger Tourney, and the most recent Regiment Event.

Personally, I find the inherent issues regarding any combat system fascinating and frustrating, so I thought I'd make this post to hash out some of those problems - at the very least identify them - and offer what paltry insight I have into the matter.

I think, at its core, any combat system is an abstraction, and necessarily so. That is not a bad thing. Fun is, obviously, the driving motivation in these things, and simplicity is historically more conductive to that entertainment.

During my time and experience here at CoTH, I've seen two major issues with most of the combat systems stemming from their abstractions. I'll attempt to elucidate them below.

The first crops up in opposed dice rolling. I may be wrong, but that seems to be what is used most often - attacker rolls 1d100, defender rolls the same. If attacker is higher, he deals damage, if not, attack fails. Especially high attack rolls or defense rolls are usually rewarded with something, right? The obvious problem I've seen is that it essentially boils the combat experience down to luck. Whoever rolls better on a random number generator wins. That simple. It is, admittedly, a simple and easy system once you learn it, but it has always stuck in my craw because it ignores an equally important part of combat- it fails to abstract inherent skill or strategy.

My arguments here, to clarify, will posit that an ideal combat abstraction needs to factor in three things. One is the inherent combat skill of the combatants, that is to say, it should matter how good one is. Second is the inherent chaos and variability of combat- luck is, in fact, sometimes a real source of victory. Lastly, I believe it should factor in strategy, here defined as the choices one makes during combat.

To further clarify why I believe a combat abstraction should include those things- sometimes, in combat, you just get lucky. Sometimes, you're just better than the other guy, and sometimes you just make the right decisions. Removing luck makes combat a boring calculation - you know the outcome before it starts. Removing skill makes it an overly equal playing field, where practice and experience are rendered meaningless- progress in combat skill is effectively moot. And lastly, removing strategy ties the hands of the combatants, as strategy is effectively choice. Choice is always a good thing.

All of the above is in my personal opinion.

Now, the prominent method of combat is, as I've mentioned, straight opposed rolling. It is simple, but I believe it neglects strategy and skill- in the Spellslinger tournament, for example, my novice spellcaster had exactly the same chance to be a much more experienced arcane user. I did not think that particularly fair to the experienced character, nor did I feel vindicated in my victory. The random number generator merely came out higher on my end more times than theirs.

That method also neglects strategy because the choices offered are of little consequence on offense (and I saw no choices on defense). One could attack, and that was about it. It was hardly a choice. Certainly, one could be creative and try attacks that did knockdown effects, or somesuch, but at the end of the day, those attacks wouldn't win you the fight. The rolling would.

In The Regiment's combat events, I saw Armor Class used instead of opposed rolling. I think that addressed some of the issues of opposed rolling, most prominently luck. Luck was still a factor - as it will be anytime dice are rolled - but AC represents something static and inherent. AC, more than an opposed defense roll, represents skill. Strategy was, however, as limited as the opposed rolling system. We got creative and had fun - I tried to climb a troll using an ax - but it always felt more flavorful than strategic. It still fell to the dice to determine whether the strategy worked on not, and that, I think, gives luck undue weight.

That is the essence of what I'm arguing. I feel as though the ingredients are out there - strategy, luck, and skill are all represented - but the balance and weight feels off to me. Ideally, a combat abstraction should reward savvy choices (and choices should not be dependent on a dice roll to work), it should factor in skill, and it should allow for luck.

I don't have a combat system of my own, yet, but I'm getting there. For now, I'm trying to nail down a one vs. one duel system. Multiple opponents would likely cause me to tear my eyes out.

Wel, that's what I got. Those are my thoughts. Tear into them, if you please, or offer your own opinions.

Also, tell me I'm pretty.

[Piroska]

One of the things that I've been considering (particularly with the events run for The Regiment) is the application of a leveling system and also a pool of feats/spells/talents from which players can select abilities. I drew a lot of my inspiration from conventional pen'n'paper roleplaying games since they make much more sense to me than the I-rolled-higher-than-you system that is currently prevalent on Conquest of the Horde.

This system, of course, would be utilized only for my own events and would require a minimal amount of effort from participants ahead of time, particularly in the creation of a character sheet dependent upon the abilities that players select. I haven't quite gone through all of the numbers just yet, but as the system is heavily based upon games like World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game, I feel that it's fairly stable and also provides variation dependent upon the class of the character, the race, and also the experience held by that individual.

Oh, and you're oh-so-pretty, Thorin!

[pliantreality]

Piroska, you treat me so well...

I think a leveling system does make the most sense as a representation of skill. And feats may very well cover strategy.

Personally, I'm working on a mage dueling system which is based on the noblest of all sports: Rock, Paper, Scissors.

My hopes is that the RPS translates to real strategy- no choice is without an in-built weakness, and correct choice would hopefully result in tangible benefit. That covers strategy. Still working on the other two aspects.

[LostStranger]

As an off-hand comment, Hargrin is prettier.

And as graceful as a butterfly.

[Brutalskars]

The system I use for the Bloodsworn is based on random rolls but it has changing values and stuff based on factors. Platemail helps reduce critical damage, great weapons deal more critical damage. Etc. Etc.

Really it comes down to a mix of good RP and the odds being stacked in your favor. If you flank or pin down enemies bonues, if you outnumber or intimidate you get bonuses. It you are using a good mix of offensive and defensive strategy, bonuses come to you.

Most of the work falls on the DM, but I also arm every character with a randomly selected Encounter Power they may use once per battle. I also give hefty bonuses to the prestige classed members of my groups.

[Piroska]

Piroska, you treat me so well...

D'awww.

Kril, Stranger, and I (the officers of The Regiment) discussed implementing a leveling system well before the restart. We liked the concept, particularly since it would allow regular attendees to benefit from their continued efforts while allowing for customization of their characters. And the whole customization thing is huge with me; I feel that it's important for players to take ownership of their characters and being able to create something different and unique in a combat system as just a natural extension of that.

That and World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game allows for far more freedom in what players can do than the game itself. As a result, there's a lot of overlap in the types of spells characters are able to use. For example, a number of spells that are easily accessible to arcanists (the class used to include mages, necromancers, and warlocks) can sometimes be available to higher leveled healers (priests, shamans, and druids). As a result, it provides for futher variation in gameplay and the opportunity to grow a character in unexpected ways.

Or so I hope.

My biggest constraint right now is selecting the feats and spells that I'd like to utilize in combat and then making them appropriate for the /roll 100 system we've adopted, while ensuring that most of the number crunching is on my end in order to ensure that players can just show up and play without having to have some sort of mathematical degree.

[Abishua]

For the SpellFinger's tournament, it did heavily come down to luck, and sadly there wasn't much that could be done to improve it. The problem that comes into /roll combat systems is that if it is based on character experience, race, class, and armor, then you open up the door for people to twink characters as best they can to stomp everyone else. Or alternatively suddenly claim status as a seasoned fighter/spell caster to gain the edge.

A lot of people on retail WoW role playing had issues with this system as well, because it means that a bard who never threw a punch before could stomp a paladin fresh from Northrend and months of fighting scourge. (With luck of course.) I rather dislike this system, although it does give everyone an equal and fair chance fight against characters, it is -random-.

I vastly prefer 1v1 fights to simply be emoted out without rolls. At that point it's a give and take game, where you throw your attacks and take the blows as you feel you should. Obviously this can be abused (parrying every attack, never getting hit, pulling crazy stunts), but it leads to extremely fluid combat which requires that you actually learn who your character is defensively as well as offensively.
On retail, Monide was a gnome warrior part of a Stormwind Reserves group, who were fantastic RPers (taught me a good chunk of what I know today on the subject, and improved my abilities immensely) used this system. Eventually I found the setup for him, where he was somewhat weaker than most, being a gnome, but was very agile and able to quickly slam people with his shield (which thinking on it now would have to have been absurdly light) while often forgetting to defend his lower body. Most he fought were in spars with pretty seasoned reservists, so most of the time he ended up flat on his back with a sword pointed in his face. But he also won a few fights, when he got aggressive enough.

The final benefit that this system does well, is that it means that (if everyone fighting is playing fair of course) previous preparation and current conditions of a character get considered and can cause an unlikely character to come out on top. For one fight, I delayed it ICly to prepare my mage with several extra runes for use, along with nomming on some mana thistle. Did it actually help with the ooc rolls? No, but with this system it would have opened up more options and a larger chance for me to succeed.

For events like the tournament, it's a less desirable system. People want to win it, and certain people -should- win it from character background and power, but if there's no chance for the small time mages or apprentices, then why would they want to show up to get stomped? Some would, but eventually it'd get tiring to be consistently beaten out by the other guys who have the more desirable traits.

I don't know, just I feel like both systems work for different benefits, and that you can only improve the roll system so much before coming into other problems. (Having a large set of rules which make the rolls take longer and more complicated, confusing and potentially scaring off newcomers. This is what I see as the biggest threat.)

Just my couple copper.

[Mayson]

Mh. I had this weekend an interesting fight after the raid at the catacombs. One paladin against three warlocks. And it was just with altered rolls.

I asked the players, what their strong points and their weaknesses are and then we started. We had different HP values, too. The paladin had 7 at the beginning, one warlock 6, one warlock 4 and one warlock only 3, depending on the answer they gave. They also could pick one or two abilities of them and use them ICly. Without writing it down, it can be kinda confusing but that way, the rolls are much more individual.

[Binkleheimer]

I guess I could break out my D&D books and try to help cook something up.