Since everyone is doing it so... Yeah, feedback please?

[Rosencrat]

My only issue is that I have seen you in trust fights and no matter what the blow is, or what the attack is rather, Celes avoids it. Don't be afraid to take hits. Otherwise <3

This.

When myself and another GM fought Celes a while back we started the game off with trust. However, both of us got rather frustrated when our attacks were being deflected with single-minded skill. The last straw was when Celes began deflecting attacks aimed at another one of her friends.

Don't be afraid to take hits. Trust fighting goes off best when you make it realistic and creates a more enjoyable experience for both parties.

[c0rzilla]

So, yeah. Moving feedback in here and out of your art thread.

It's honestly been a while since I RPed with you, so this will just be on the theory of your characters' appearance, and your airship.

• Yes, you've heard it before. The jugs, the melons, the bazongas. Why. Why, why, why. Why do all of your female characters have them? You may not realize or intend this, but that, right there is so very sexist. All your female characters, even little Cinnamon, look like such stereotypes. Please, please. I want to see a serious female character that doesn't need her huge airbags, or vacant doe eyes to draw attention.
  
  
• Saiyuu, none of it makes sense. There is plenty of leather out there to make Celes' movement easier, but you choose the stockings and bathing suit. If you retort with "It attracts attention", this just proves my point about the sexism.
  
  
• About the bunny ears. I recall hearing the story behind those, but it just adds to the Playboy shtick Celes has going, intentional or not.
  
  
• The engineering. As I stated before, it really looks like you're tossing stuff together to make it look cute or pretty. From what I have seen, there is no lore at all to back up your idea that the Draenei had a fleet of airships on Argus. Granted, we know nothing about Argus other than it was nigh paradise, until Sargeras. How do the crystals work? Why is it named such a human sounding name?
  

I'm really trying to not come off as rude, and apologies if I come off as abrasive. I can't always tell the difference between "frank with a side of good-natured snark" and "mean". As well, please don't take anything I said as me accusing you of being something. It just comes across that way, the way you design.

[Wuvvums]

As for the dressing code, it's useless to say that WoW's fashion and clothing choices are a bit tad different than the choices seen in our own world. Look here and that pretty much gives an example on how a draenei can dress. And that's a warrior and doesn't need to be fully covered in plate from top to bottom.

The example you pulled for that draenei is for a shaman. Shamans sort of have a tribal fashion and are spiritual. Wearing a loin cloth is a bit different from a skin-tight leotard, and the context counts too. It'd be normal to see a shaman in tribal dress in say Nagrand or even the town that comes before the Exodar. These sort of fit the draenei theme. Wearing a leotard as a warrior does not...

On contrary to many people think, I play Celes seriously, she's pretty much my main char, and like a good friend of mine described "She's an interesting char. Skimpy, but she's not a whore.".

I have not said she was a whore, though I did ICly call her a prostitute I think that would be a typical response for some characters ICly, especially in the seedier places like Booty Bay. I can't say I have had much experience with the character but I have seen her act rather naive and tried to eat my character's deck of cards. The important part about first impressions is that we don't have anything else to go off of; when we see things like that we're going to assume that's the character typically. I can't be blamed if I haven't seen Celes in a serious position, and further I should be able to see for myself if she is a serious character by observation and not based on your word only.

Funny how I only see this sort of critique in my art thread. It's like people have a knack for picking someone to criticize at every turn, I even got a comment in game about being an attention whore. Funny enough, I think none of my chars has actually a "whorish" behavior.

It may be because once you have not responded to your actual feedback thread. You don't need to take critique but when you ask for it you haven't seem to done much in response about it. I once critiqued, for example, an offensive stereotype you roleplayed out but you did not seem to care and even gave excuse for it. As mentioned there's nothing wrong in asking for feedback but there's a sort of merit to what other players are saying. You should seriously consider some of this feedback.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, I just wanted to address some points to the character, mostly that you seem to use your artwork for IC when it's not a convincing IC thing.

[c0rzilla]

Here's some help with art. Yes, a guide to draw breasts. They are not airbags that defy gravity, saggy, heavy boobs are not scary.

[Saiyuu]

So, yeah. Moving feedback in here and out of your art thread.

It's honestly been a while since I RPed with you, so this will just be on the theory of your characters' appearance, and your airship.

• Yes, you've heard it before. The jugs, the melons, the bazongas. Why. Why, why, why. Why do all of your female characters have them? You may not realize or intend this, but that, right there is so very sexist. All your female characters, even little Cinnamon, look like such stereotypes. Please, please. I want to see a serious female character that doesn't need her huge airbags, or vacant doe eyes to draw attention.
  
  
• Saiyuu, none of it makes sense. There is plenty of leather out there to make Celes' movement easier, but you choose the stockings and bathing suit. If you retort with "It attracts attention", this just proves my point about the sexism.
  
  
• About the bunny ears. I recall hearing the story behind those, but it just adds to the Playboy shtick Celes has going, intentional or not.
  
  
• The engineering. As I stated before, it really looks like you're tossing stuff together to make it look cute or pretty. From what I have seen, there is no lore at all to back up your idea that the Draenei had a fleet of airships on Argus. Granted, we know nothing about Argus other than it was nigh paradise, until Sargeras. How do the crystals work? Why is it named such a human sounding name?
  

I'm really trying to not come off as rude, and apologies if I come off as abrasive. I can't always tell the difference between "frank with a side of good-natured snark" and "mean". As well, please don't take anything I said as me accusing you of being something. It just comes across that way, the way you design.

Listened and noted, some replies about your points.

Answering by order of questions, so, there we go:

- Guilty, yes, it's a peculiar thing of me and my artistic style, however a number of my characters are just average, or even skinny. Nirana, sin'dorei paladin, tall, average, nothing above the normal, moving on. Selyse, human knight, same thing, taller than usual, moving on. Mora, sin'dorei mage, average on everything, but short and frail-looking, moving on. Yes, a few of mine have this peculiar aspect, call me a sexist or not, can't say I dislike the way I do things. Moving to next point.

- About the armor, IC'ly. Made of mail, leather and cloth combinations. The suit part itself is mail underneath. Nothing thick, but Celes has a dislike for armors with too much encumbrance. Some people do say and think she wears what she wears simply because I want both IC'ly and OOC'ly to attention whore. Wrong. Ask around, people point out about Celes' thighs and she simply thanks the compliment and moves on. She's not wearing it as a mean to obtain attention. Next point.

- True too, this part was meant as comical relief, ironically. The ears are actually an important memento to her, IC'ly, but since recently they turned into something practical, flashlights. It's useful both in and out of fights. Lights on your opponent's eyes can temporarily blind it, giving a possible opening that might be exploited. Out of it? If you're in a dark place, turn them on. Want to read a book without needing a candle by your side? Turn them on. Next point.

- Lastly, I've never stated about Argus or the Draenei themselves having any aircraft/ships other than the dimensional fortress (Tempest Keep) and ships (Exodar, Botanica, Mechanar and the Alcatraz). What Celes intends to do is try and come with a first design of what could be a draenei aircraft, basing herself in gnome/goblin aircraft. It's a first creation, so no, it doesn't has a great background, but I figured that a draenei would be marveled upon seeing a flying machine for the first time and a tinkering draenei would surely try and dream about a very model for the draenei.

No offense taken, as you just posted on a Feedback thread. That's what feedback threads are for. Thank you for the insight and apologizes if my characters come out as silly, or even stupid.

As for the dressing code, it's useless to say that WoW's fashion and clothing choices are a bit tad different than the choices seen in our own world. Look here and that pretty much gives an example on how a draenei can dress. And that's a warrior and doesn't need to be fully covered in plate from top to bottom.

The example you pulled for that draenei is for a shaman. Shamans sort of have a tribal fashion and are spiritual. Wearing a loin cloth is a bit different from a skin-tight leotard, and the context counts too. It'd be normal to see a shaman in tribal dress in say Nagrand or even the town that comes before the Exodar. These sort of fit the draenei theme. Wearing a leotard as a warrior does not...

On contrary to many people think, I play Celes seriously, she's pretty much my main char, and like a good friend of mine described "She's an interesting char. Skimpy, but she's not a whore.".

I have not said she was a whore, though I did ICly call her a prostitute I think that would be a typical response for some characters ICly, especially in the seedier places like Booty Bay. I can't say I have had much experience with the character but I have seen her act rather naive and tried to eat my character's deck of cards. The important part about first impressions is that we don't have anything else to go off of; when we see things like that we're going to assume that's the character typically. I can't be blamed if I haven't seen Celes in a serious position, and further I should be able to see for myself if she is a serious character by observation and not based on your word only.

Funny how I only see this sort of critique in my art thread. It's like people have a knack for picking someone to criticize at every turn, I even got a comment in game about being an attention whore. Funny enough, I think none of my chars has actually a "whorish" behavior.

It may be because once you have not responded to your actual feedback thread. You don't need to take critique but when you ask for it you haven't seem to done much in response about it. I once critiqued, for example, an offensive stereotype you roleplayed out but you did not seem to care and even gave excuse for it. As mentioned there's nothing wrong in asking for feedback but there's a sort of merit to what other players are saying. You should seriously consider some of this feedback.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, I just wanted to address some points to the character, mostly that you seem to use your artwork for IC when it's not a convincing IC thing.

Nothing wrong with this, I usually pay mind to the feedback threads but I don't always reply to them. I read the comments and try to fix my wrong points, as well as try to strengthen my good ones (which I happen to have, I suppose). As for the stereotype issue I believe you are talking about Lambda, Epsilon's ghoul, which his homosexual. Yes, he may sound stereotyped, believe me, he's not. If you see some of the IC posts I've done about him and Epsilon you will notice he's not only a good friend, but the closest thing Epsilon sees to a family, and that he's actually capable of being a deep character, despite his choices.

The IC thing with Celes, about eating the cards, there isn't much I can say about this. I believe this was during my first months here and I do admit, the first two months were played with Celes being rather naive and dumb. Do look around, the character changed greatly through character development, and as you suggested back in the Art Thread, she will be changed during the restart, especially her story, to make sense with some of her actual skills, beliefs and overall behavior.

Thank you for the feedback and take no mind to my early rant, I just stated something that stays into my mind from some people's actions.

---

Here's some help with art. Yes, a guide to draw breasts. They are not airbags that defy gravity, saggy, heavy boobs are not scary.

This will be taken to mind, thank you, but have in mind that I almost always draw my characters clothed. Clothes, particularly underwear, have a different effect on breasts, but as I recall there is one drawing of Celes in bikini where her breasts do look saggy and heavy.

Again, thank you for the suggestion.

[FlyingSquirrel]

- Guilty, yes, it's a peculiar thing of me and my artistic style, however a number of my characters are just average, or even skinny. Nirana, sin'dorei paladin, tall, average, nothing above the normal, moving on. Selyse, human knight, same thing, taller than usual, moving on. Mora, sin'dorei mage, average on everything, but short and frail-looking, moving on. Yes, a few of mine have this peculiar aspect, call me a sexist or not, can't say I dislike the way I do things. Moving to next point.

Not trying to hate on you or anything (hopefully the rant on Gecko will be my first and last), but I've really never seen you on any of those characters, bar Nirana, whereas otherwise you have Saiyuu, Celes and Epsilon.

[Saiyuu]

- Guilty, yes, it's a peculiar thing of me and my artistic style, however a number of my characters are just average, or even skinny. Nirana, sin'dorei paladin, tall, average, nothing above the normal, moving on. Selyse, human knight, same thing, taller than usual, moving on. Mora, sin'dorei mage, average on everything, but short and frail-looking, moving on. Yes, a few of mine have this peculiar aspect, call me a sexist or not, can't say I dislike the way I do things. Moving to next point.

Not trying to hate on you or anything (hopefully the rant on Gecko will be my first and last), but I've really never seen you on any of those characters, bar Nirana, whereas otherwise you have Saiyuu, Celes and Epsilon.

I usually roleplay those early in the morning. If you've seen another sin'dorei character, Sathia, it's worthy mentioning Nirana is her sister, which is why I roleplay her often at those times. As for those three, they're my main charas, most IC friends of my characters are within this trio, which is why I play them so often.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Yea, yea, I know, but that's still a ratio of 1:3. I feel that what everyone is trying to say is this

Sure, it's okay to have one or maybe even two attractive (well, figuratively... you know what I mean) characters. However, eventually, it begins to get ridiculous.

[Wuvvums]

"- About the armor, IC'ly. Made of mail, leather and cloth combinations. The suit part itself is mail underneath. Nothing thick, but Celes has a dislike for armors with too much encumbrance. Some people do say and think she wears what she wears simply because I want both IC'ly and OOC'ly to attention whore. Wrong. Ask around, people point out about Celes' thighs and she simply thanks the compliment and moves on. She's not wearing it as a mean to obtain attention. Next point."

I just want to point out... pants are not encumbering. In fact, not having pants is probably more encumbering. Ever had chaffing? It's one of the reasons why I dread wearing dresses. Bare legs tend to rub together and make rashes and sore spots.

But it's also not more or less encumbering having pants versus no pants.

Edit: now that I think of it bladed boots would be much more encumbering than wearing pants.

[Saiyuu]

Yea, yea, I know, but that's still a ratio of 1:3. I feel that what everyone is trying to say is this

Sure, it's okay to have one or maybe even two attractive (well, figuratively... you know what I mean) characters. However, eventually, it begins to get ridiculous.

Noted, but in this case I'd like to point out that while one might find my character appealing, attractive or pretty, another might find it the greatest abomination ever. I've seen a guy IC'ly throw rants and curses about Saiyuu's bust size, and that's natural. Some people will like, some won't, some will hate.

"- About the armor, IC'ly. Made of mail, leather and cloth combinations. The suit part itself is mail underneath. Nothing thick, but Celes has a dislike for armors with too much encumbrance. Some people do say and think she wears what she wears simply because I want both IC'ly and OOC'ly to attention whore. Wrong. Ask around, people point out about Celes' thighs and she simply thanks the compliment and moves on. She's not wearing it as a mean to obtain attention. Next point."

I just want to point out... pants are not encumbering. In fact, not having pants is probably more encumbering. Ever had chaffing? It's one of the reasons why I dread wearing dresses. Bare legs tend to rub together and make rashes and sore spots.

But it's also not more or less encumbering having pants versus no pants.

Yes, did that, but in this case I also point out that not only draenei have a better endurance to this sort of thing, but that doesn't happen to everyone. Me in particular, dresses are my favorite kind of clothes (I do need to wear them, as a matter of health), and I've grown so used to it I don't end up having those. Still, it's the character's choice, in fact Celes is my only char that wears this sort of suit. All others resort to regular means. Saiyuu wears a long, priestly dress. Epsilon wears about 70 pounds of armor. Nirana wears a suit that only leaves her head exposed. Kaiya wears a long dress, worn-out one too. So goes on the list. ^^

[Reese]

Know what? Think i'll just leave this here.

[c0rzilla]

Listened and noted, some replies about your points.

Answering by order of questions, so, there we go:

- Guilty, yes, it's a peculiar thing of me and my artistic style, however a number of my characters are just average, or even skinny. Nirana, sin'dorei paladin, tall, average, nothing above the normal, moving on. Selyse, human knight, same thing, taller than usual, moving on. Mora, sin'dorei mage, average on everything, but short and frail-looking, moving on. Yes, a few of mine have this peculiar aspect, call me a sexist or not, can't say I dislike the way I do things. Moving to next point.

Style can only be used as a reason (excuse?) when you have a proper grasp of anatomy. You do not.

- About the armor, IC'ly. Made of mail, leather and cloth combinations. The suit part itself is mail underneath. Nothing thick, but Celes has a dislike for armors with too much encumbrance. Some people do say and think she wears what she wears simply because I want both IC'ly and OOC'ly to attention whore. Wrong. Ask around, people point out about Celes' thighs and she simply thanks the compliment and moves on. She's not wearing it as a mean to obtain attention. Next point.

See: Wuvvum's statement about pants. As well, armor in Azeroth is easily magical, there are so many ways to lighten it. Sorry, the encumbering "reason" doesn't fly.

- True too, this part was meant as comical relief, ironically. The ears are actually an important memento to her, IC'ly, but since recently they turned into something practical, flashlights. It's useful both in and out of fights. Lights on your opponent's eyes can temporarily blind it, giving a possible opening that might be exploited. Out of it? If you're in a dark place, turn them on. Want to read a book without needing a candle by your side? Turn them on. Next point.

How is it powered? Something like this would be even more encumbering than the pants Celes so detests. As well, how is a pair of rabbit ears important enough to display so ostentatiously, and a relic from her (slowly becoming more lost) draenic history not?

- Lastly, I've never stated about Argus or the Draenei themselves having any aircraft/ships other than the dimensional fortress (Tempest Keep) and ships (Exodar, Botanica, Mechanar and the Alcatraz). What Celes intends to do is try and come with a first design of what could be a draenei aircraft, basing herself in gnome/goblin aircraft. It's a first creation, so no, it doesn't has a great background, but I figured that a draenei would be marveled upon seeing a flying machine for the first time and a tinkering draenei would surely try and dream about a very model for the draenei.

Tempest Keep is all of those ships combined. The Exodar just broke free during the sin'dorei raid on the complex. They are all dimensional ships. How is this based on gnomish or goblin tech when it's powered by vague pretty crystals?

Now, it is very likely (despite the lack of lore) Argus had some sort of flying contraption. We just have zero idea how it'd work.

[Wuvvums]

So you're saying it's not encumbrance, but it's choice. You CAN wear these suits but I think what people are pointing out is that they don't serve any practical purpose.

Also Celes has legs bigger and thicker than mine so I would presume chaffing can happen.

[Saiyuu]

Know what? Think i'll just leave this here.

I just love you for this, Reese.



I will really stop arguing against those other points. Whether people like or not, I try to play seriously even if some things don't make perfect sense. Like or dislike, I can't change anyone's opinions. They're opinions after all.

[Aphetoros]

I'm gonna get straight to the point.

How the herp do they bounce around and move so well, with such agility. I recall seeing Saiyuu flip around using levitate and jump and roll fighting with arrows of light. Celes jumped over a gigantic dwarf with ease. It's just... unrealistic o: