Re-Canonizing the RPG Books

[Aphetoros]

I just think that certain things are silly to disregard, for example living death knights. Living death knights existed as second generation death knights. They were living soldiers that willingly followed the Scourge from the promise of immortality. When they were slain or died, they were simply raised to serve in undeath. Third generation living deathknights were fanon, and they don't make sense, but the argument about the d20's retcon having anything do with our living death knights on CotH is ridiculous, as they're completely different things!

You see what I'm getting at? A lot of the lore there is interesting and fills out gaps in the WoW universe, but doesn't directly affect everyday roleplay. There's no reason to fix it if it ain't broke.

[Grakor456]

You see what I'm getting at? A lot of the lore there is interesting and fills out gaps in the WoW universe, but doesn't directly affect everyday roleplay. There's no reason to fix it if it ain't broke.

It is broken, though, which is the problem. A lot of the d20 lore contradicts what we see in-game.

As I said, little culture bits should be fine. They add spice. But there are a lot of things with the d20 that should have been tossed out the window a while ago.

[Hawk]

if I recall I remember one of our own GMs using a runemaster's rune to ICly fly, on another note.

That was me. I would however, like to add explanation as to why, because I didn't immediately know that those abilities even existed. I'd like to clear my name before I'm being used as an example in an argument.


Before I even began my Prestige training, I was actually looking at Wowpedia (before WoWWiki) for my rune information. I was originally sticking to those. If you go onto the Runemaster page on Wowpedia, I think you'll agree that back when Runemaster was a Prestige, they were pretty reasonable powers to use at the time. They weren't too overpowered. I was directed to the D20 runes and nudged to use those shortly after I began training, however. And even back then I was thinking "... well this is CRAZY.", and I still do. The abilities in the D20 are rather ridiculous, even for Prestige classes to have, and despite the vast amounts of fun I was having using those silly things, I can't say I'd like to use them again. Or see anyone else use them, for that matter.


So yeah. That's all I'm saying on this subject. Don't use me as an example for anything in this topic. /offtopic

[flammos200]

if I recall I remember one of our own GMs using a runemaster's rune to ICly fly, on another note.

That was me. I would however, like to add explanation as to why, because I didn't immediately know that those abilities even existed. I'd like to clear my name before I'm being used as an example in an argument.


Before I even began my Prestige training, I was actually looking at Wowpedia (before WoWWiki) for my rune information. I was originally sticking to those. If you go onto the Runemaster page on Wowpedia, I think you'll agree that back when Runemaster was a Prestige, they were pretty reasonable powers to use at the time. They weren't too overpowered. I was directed to the D20 runes and nudged to use those shortly after I began training, however. And even back then I was thinking "... well this is CRAZY.", and I still do. The abilities in the D20 are rather ridiculous, even for Prestige classes to have, and despite the vast amounts of fun I was having using those silly things, I can't say I'd like to use them again. Or see anyone else use them, for that matter.


So yeah. That's all I'm saying on this subject. Don't use me as an example for anything in this topic. /offtopic

...It was fun. It didn't harm anyone. It created RP. It was just flying around. It did not hinder Role-play in any way.

Why, then, was it wrong?

I'll never get why one would chop off what isn't broken, and what doesn't hurt RP. Plus, there's nowhere in-game that says that RMs can't do it. It's only word against word, without any solid proof on the matter.

Say, a Mage enchants a pair of Sandals to allow Flight, and does the same, and starts working for Stormwind's Postal Service as a mail-man. It wouldn't be -bad-. In fact, it might spice up RP. Fel, he or she may end up giving off Winter's Veil gifts from the air at the appropriate time. Or doing other such fun stuff. It's not used for AWP METAGAEMING RAWR!, but rather it adds another factor into role-play, enhancing it and elevating it rather than turning it down a notch, back to old Tavern Role-play.

[Kaghuros]

I definitely agree with Grakor on this. Flavor is something that any fiction can add to the world, especially such well-informed fiction as the kind presented in the d20 books. Heck, we write the same sort of stuff here on CotH all the time, and it fills the unexplained niches in our own little World of Warcraft.

Because Blizzard probably won't ever write an end-all be-all lore compendium of how every race functions, it's reasonable to add spice, as it were, to our stew of storylines by filling in the little gaps in our knowledge with things we hear from sourcebooks, and make up ourselves, that seem to fit reasonably within the world.

[Rigley]

...It was fun. It didn't harm anyone. It created RP. It was just flying around. It did not hinder Role-play in any way.

Why, then, was it wrong?

Just to talk about the topic of flight there, I hardly get the idea that one character being able to fly around could create RP.

But as far as the rest of your question goes; there are plenty of things people consider fun and non-intrusive to RP that we shouldn't let them play. The most obvious are things like dragons and other beings similar- Being a dragon in disguise can be fun, and it could definitely create RP, and unless they're attacking people or sommat, that doesn't hinder RP either.

Neither would, say, people playing a robot. But just because it is fun and the like doesn't mean we should have it on CotH. Back to instance of flying, why would anyone want to have a flying mount if they could just kick their heels and shoot into the sky? If they have flight with magic figured out, why do the magi at Dalaran come into the place on flying machines, gryphons, and the like? It may be a fun idea, but it doesn't really fit, basically.

Also I don't think I'd want to see mages drifting around in the air at random. It would just be awkward, with the robes and all.

It's not used for AWP METAGAEMING RAWR!, but rather it adds another factor into role-play, enhancing it and elevating it rather than turning it down a notch, back to old Tavern Role-play.

As for this, I have some thoughts as well here. Flying or any other gimmick is a neat trick. That's pretty much what it will remain as. People may be interested to see your character floating for the first day, or maybe even the first week, but after that it just blends in with everyone else. Usually in a tavern.

If people want to spice up tavern RP they shouldn't be searching for gimmicks or such to show off around the place, they should be searching for plot- a spontaneous event can do wonders to lift the monotony, and your character doesn't need to be a floating person or a dragon to initiate those.

I hope I'm explaining this well enough. Just because it would be fun to play a space marine doesn't mean we should.

[Xigo]

If mages could fly, warriors would be screwed.

Just sayin'.

[Aphetoros]

Warriors already are ICly screwed. One fireball hitting the right spot and you die, honestly. Magical fire burns as long as arcane powers it.

...yeah.

I still don't see how it's broke, though.

[Beltharean]

...why do the magi at Dalaran come into the place on flying machines, gryphons, and the like?

A. Takes too much mana. Why waste your only power source on something like flying? I think it would be something only used in dire circumstances personally.

B. Because it's not in the lore any more

If we use the RPG books, answer A.

If not, answer B.

[hiddengecko]

...why do the magi at Dalaran come into the place on flying machines, gryphons, and the like?

A. Takes too much mana. Why waste your only power source on something like flying? I think it would be something only used in dire circumstances personally.

B. Because it's not in the lore any more

If we use the RPG books, answer A.

If not, answer B.

Precisely. I simply cannot understand trying to simply take the half-finished ingame lore and ruling out the RPGbooks entirely; dealing with inconsistencies isn't nearly so difficult as one might think.

[Grakor456]

If mages could fly, warriors would be screwed.

Just sayin'.

Pretty much. Flight is a VERY powerful ability, and the ability to move in a third dimension in places where it's normally not possible can really make things...difficult to balance.

That's not to say we can't add other abilities to Runemasters as necessary, same with Necromancers. If we do add Motion abilities, it'd probably be limited to either a mage-like Blink, or saying that they're very effective at climbing or jumping.

[flammos200]

...It was fun. It didn't harm anyone. It created RP. It was just flying around. It did not hinder Role-play in any way.

Why, then, was it wrong?

Just to talk about the topic of flight there, I hardly get the idea that one character being able to fly around could create RP.

But as far as the rest of your question goes; there are plenty of things people consider fun and non-intrusive to RP that we shouldn't let them play. The most obvious are things like dragons and other beings similar- Being a dragon in disguise can be fun, and it could definitely create RP, and unless they're attacking people or sommat, that doesn't hinder RP either.

Neither would, say, people playing a robot. But just because it is fun and the like doesn't mean we should have it on CotH. Back to instance of flying, why would anyone want to have a flying mount if they could just kick their heels and shoot into the sky? If they have flight with magic figured out, why do the magi at Dalaran come into the place on flying machines, gryphons, and the like? It may be a fun idea, but it doesn't really fit, basically.

Also I don't think I'd want to see mages drifting around in the air at random. It would just be awkward, with the robes and all.

It's not used for AWP METAGAEMING RAWR!, but rather it adds another factor into role-play, enhancing it and elevating it rather than turning it down a notch, back to old Tavern Role-play.

As for this, I have some thoughts as well here. Flying or any other gimmick is a neat trick. That's pretty much what it will remain as. People may be interested to see your character floating for the first day, or maybe even the first week, but after that it just blends in with everyone else. Usually in a tavern.

If people want to spice up tavern RP they shouldn't be searching for gimmicks or such to show off around the place, they should be searching for plot- a spontaneous event can do wonders to lift the monotony, and your character doesn't need to be a floating person or a dragon to initiate those.

I hope I'm explaining this well enough. Just because it would be fun to play a space marine doesn't mean we should.

...First off, I only meant lore-plausible, and non-OP things. I never meant robots or dragons or what have you. Especially not things that have nothing to do with the Warcraft universe.

As for flying. It is generally agreed upon that Enchanting an item, especially permanently, is much more difficult and costly than casting a singular spell with the same effect. Thus, wreathing a sword in fire forever is much more difficult and costly than casting a fireball, if you wanted to burn someone.

Moving on, Flight is used by magi in something as complex as permanent enchants in a myriad of ways. From flying brooms and carpets, to Dalaran itself, to the pieces of enormous circular rock spinning around its spires. Let's say that Dalaran is an exception, since it's important and it likely took a lot of magi to do it, right? Even Archmagi. All right...

But take a look at Quel'thalas. Every single shelf floats and rotates and does who-knows-what, flying around like a backwards-brained bumblebee. In addition, even in the most weird and out-of-the-way places, we can find such floaty, flying stuff. From the self-sweeping brooms, to nondescript far-away shelves in forgotten beaches that no elf ever visits anymore.

Basically, if they used magic for something as trivial as keeping books on shelves, it surely did not:

A. Cost a lot of mana or drain the caster severely. Otherwise, no one would bother with such trivial things.

B. Take a lot of casters to do. See point A.

Much of the decoration of Silvermoon floats and flies.

Even Priests floatyfly around. As flying is described as moving forward, backward or to the sides while you're completely in the air, they can fly using levitation. Not very fast(walking/running speed), but they can.

The spells we are given in-game are guidelines rather than the true representation of our characters' powers, or so I've always taken it. It makes no sense to say that a Fire Mage couldn't toss a crescent-shaped blast of fire, when they can throw about fireballs, detonate large blast waves and even create complex forms such as the heads of dragons to breathe fire out of, just because there's no spell with that description in the game.
Slow-fall is what I've always taken as the basis for which magi can fly.

Alternatively, since they can move Frost around, they can just make themselves a big slab of Ice to stand on and move that forward like they're flying on a snowboard(C wut I did thar?).

Or a Mana Shield bubble to keep them in like a hamsterball, while they dive under the ocean, protected from the water by the barrier the spell forms.

The possibilities are limitless.

You spoke of how such 'gimmicks' have no real use? They do in long, organized story-lines. Or even short ones.

Friend stranded on a mountaintop, after a Flying Machine crash? Fly over and grab him. Alternatively, you can teleport over, but that takes -more- energy and time than flight. And since we know mountaintops are cold, the friend may die of exposure by then.

Falling off Outland into the Nether? Fly up back onto the rock.

Enemy Shaman summoning stone spikes out of the ground everywhere? Hover up for a bit, and strike back!

Also, Warriors, last I checked, can use projectile weapons. Thus, crossbows, bows and guns vs flying enemies = Warriors stand a pretty good chance. Equal to that of hitting a moving enemy on the ground, in fact.

...And, what's to hold one from surfing a flying broom all the time? And attacking off it, or casting spells off it? In the hypothetical situation in which a Warrior would be screwed by any flying mage, the result remains the same.

Just my take on it. It's like saying a mage can't make a letter into a paper plane and enchant it to fly to a preset destination. Of course, the weather would impede it, sure, but it would work... We know even Dalaran's mail system is teleport-based. Flying is De-OP-ing that into taking some time. Just like sending it with a carrier pidgeon.

Rather than limit creativity, why not promote it? It's just small things that don't hamper role-play in the least.


EDIT:

If mages could fly, warriors would be screwed.

Just sayin'.

Pretty much. Flight is a VERY powerful ability, and the ability to move in a third dimension in places where it's normally not possible can really make things...difficult to balance.

That's not to say we can't add other abilities to Runemasters as necessary, same with Necromancers. If we do add Motion abilities, it'd probably be limited to either a mage-like Blink, or saying that they're very effective at climbing or jumping.

...First off, Runemasters can't really teleport to anywhere where they haven't set a sigil. It is basically the equivalent of Scrolls of Recall or Hearthstones. Or a long-range Warlock Demonic Circle.

So, they would not be able to blink forwards, as there is no sigil placed on the ground in front of them.

Climbing and jumping are useful, sure. But pretty much any trained person can do it. So, they gain nothing 'special' for lack of a better word.

[Rigley]

Precisely. I simply cannot understand trying to simply take the half-finished ingame lore and ruling out the RPGbooks entirely; dealing with inconsistencies isn't nearly so difficult as one might think.

And I simply cannot understand why people haven't understood that we're not doing away with the d20 entirely- we're just now being selective about our usage.

And in response to Flammos, I've always considered the Silvermoon stuff to mostly be just levitation- which, in my mind, is different than flying. Levitation is walking over a river to not get your robe wet, and flying is zooming through the canopy above to take a burden off your legs.

And just to begin with, this is talking about inanimate objects being enchanted- something I would imagine has a different function than a person themselves attempting to fly.

I only meant lore-plausible, and non-OP things. I never meant robots or dragons or what have you.

Dragon whelps are far from OP, and young drakes have been subjugated by the orcs in the past- not very OP until they become quite aged. Robots, similarly so, as most have lots of issues with malfunctioning and with repairs and so forth. They're not very OP, we just don't really want to see people running around morphed into them.

Same as I wouldn't really want to see a crowd of mages floating around in Booty Bay.

Friend stranded on a mountaintop, after a Flying Machine crash? Fly over and grab him. Alternatively, you can teleport over, but that takes -more- energy and time than flight. And since we know mountaintops are cold, the friend may die of exposure by then.

Falling off Outland into the Nether? Fly up back onto the rock.

Enemy Shaman summoning stone spikes out of the ground everywhere? Hover up for a bit, and strike back!

-Fly there on a flying machine, or a gryphon, or something else with reliable flight.

-Don't fall off Outland. ...Seriously. Unless you want the character to die, I don't see this applying too well, since it would kinda be a definite character warning.

-Whack a fire/frost/arcane/turtlebolt back at the shaman.

I suppose I'm looking at this similar to how you're looking at these skills- don't fix what isn't broken. If we already have ways to solve issues like this that don't require a lengthy forum discussion to put in, why not use those? Occam's Razor and all that shabang.

...Also could mages have access to flight in the d20? I only heard Runemasters.

[flammos200]

Precisely. I simply cannot understand trying to simply take the half-finished ingame lore and ruling out the RPGbooks entirely; dealing with inconsistencies isn't nearly so difficult as one might think.

And I simply cannot understand why people haven't understood that we're not doing away with the d20 entirely- we're just now being selective about our usage.

And in response to Flammos, I've always considered the Silvermoon stuff to mostly be just levitation- which, in my mind, is different than flying. Levitation is walking over a river to not get your robe wet, and flying is zooming through the canopy above to take a burden off your legs.

And just to begin with, this is talking about inanimate objects being enchanted- something I would imagine has a different function than a person themselves attempting to fly.

I only meant lore-plausible, and non-OP things. I never meant robots or dragons or what have you.

Dragon whelps are far from OP, and young drakes have been subjugated by the orcs in the past- not very OP until they become quite aged. Robots, similarly so, as most have lots of issues with malfunctioning and with repairs and so forth. They're not very OP, we just don't really want to see people running around morphed into them.

Same as I wouldn't really want to see a crowd of mages floating around in Booty Bay.

Friend stranded on a mountaintop, after a Flying Machine crash? Fly over and grab him. Alternatively, you can teleport over, but that takes -more- energy and time than flight. And since we know mountaintops are cold, the friend may die of exposure by then.

Falling off Outland into the Nether? Fly up back onto the rock.

Enemy Shaman summoning stone spikes out of the ground everywhere? Hover up for a bit, and strike back!

-Fly there on a flying machine, or a gryphon, or something else with reliable flight.

-Don't fall off Outland. ...Seriously. Unless you want the character to die, I don't see this applying too well, since it would kinda be a definite character warning.

-Whack a fire/frost/arcane/turtlebolt back at the shaman.

I suppose I'm looking at this similar to how you're looking at these skills- don't fix what isn't broken. If we already have ways to solve issues like this that don't require a lengthy forum discussion to put in, why not use those? Occam's Razor and all that shabang.

...Also could mages have access to flight in the d20? I only heard Runemasters.

...Selective to what degree? For instance, I've recently heard that War-magi apparently can wear Plate.
Lore(The RPG books, and the NPCs in-game) states that -NO- Arcane-wielder can ever wear any armor, because it incurs arcane spell failure. It doesn't allow them to channel the energies of the Nether/Ley Lines. That's why magi wear robes. That's why even - if we're to go into other universes here - Jedi wear robes.

Dragons are so blatantly rare that they can't be played. Just like, say, Dark Iron Dwarves affiliated with the Thorium Brotherhood -are- friendly, but unplayable due to rarity. Or Be-Antlered Druids. Or High Elves.

Enchant shoes with flight, like I said, if it's so easy. Or... with 'levitation' and air-walk to the sky..

To the second quote...

-What if there was no flying machine in sight? Nor a gryphon or anything, and you were in the wilderness, where the other person had fallen.

-Why? If there's a perfectly plausible solution out of it. Fel, a Warlock could Metamorphosis and fly up using the demonic wings that the demon-form grants.

-You can't do that as the spikes are coming out of the ground beneath your feet.

Because some don't make sense for some characters. Arcane-corrupted, arrogant BElf mage?
'Pssht. Dragonhawks? Wyverns? -Machines-? I have -magic-. /flies up, cackling madly.'

And yes, Magi have flight in the RPG.

[Beltharean]

So do shaman, but it's because they turn part incorporeal and ride a cloud, or something ridiculous like that.

Just figured I'd throw that out there.