COTHonomics.

[Aadora]

As I said before.

Just because we started working an economy doesn't mean everyone has to be pulled into it.

If people wanted to RP outside the economy and still be a part of everything then I don't see anything wrong with that.

The economy would be specifically for those that want to use it. Wouldn't be forcing anyone into it.

[Sersay]

...Everything here just went way over my head. SO! I'll just nod my head and agree.

[Aadora]

You know what they say...

Economics is the science of explaining tomorrow why what you predicted yesterday didn't come true today.

[Dae]

Honestly, I feel like the matters of the IC economy should stay IC.
What needs to change is peoples' approach to the matter of goods and money.

The procurement of goods and the sale of items are too good of RP opportunities to ignore, in my opinion. People should put real value into their characters' belongings. Your character could break their sword and have to get it repaired by talking to a blacksmith. They could have a love of a questionable, exotic herb and correspond regularly with a shady supplier. You got a new house and are looking for someone with carpentry skills to furnish it...

And I suppose that means that I'm not really all that into the IC currency business. And I suppose I really don't get it, and certainly don't want to be forced to participate in it if I don't want to. It seems oddly OoC to me. So I guess I shouldn't be commenting too much on something that doesn't click for me.

Still, there admittedly is too much gold on the server at this moment. At least to deal with the issue of too much gold, why not have consumable OoC sinks to put it into? I appreciate maintaining a degree of blizzlike-ness on the server, but giving a character an afternoon (Or whatever temporary time period) of a 1337 superbuffs or everywhere Dominion Over Acherus or something to go goof off OoCly seems like it wouldn't hurt the IC experience for anyone too much. OK, maybe I'm just thinking this because someone mentioned "Gotta go fast".

[Piroska]

I'm still torn about how player houses creates an economy. It's just an IC gold sink, right? It's not an economy.

And, blast it all, Dae's pretty much covered everything that I wanted to say. We need to approach the economy from the perspective of creating more roleplay.

[DaveM]

I think a gold sink does generate RP.

He who'd sink must generate the gold-gathering.

[Piroska]

But the gold is currently acquired by doing dailies of a sort. And if you need a certain amount of gold in order to acquire a gold sink, what forces you to part with that gold in an ICly manner? There'd be little incentive for people to purchase if everyone is going for the uber awesome, super special gold sink items; the vast majority of people would be attempting to sell rather than buy.

[Harmonic]

I don't typically force my characters into needing to make money all the time.

That would change if I had to pay "Upkeep" and rent for my bar, and at that point I don't think it'd feel like RP. It'd feel like a job, or a grind. IC job and grind, but still not something I'd want to do. It's almost too meta, in a way. "I'm online, RPing working, for RP money, so I can buy an RP house."

Heh.

[Nostra]

Well, I am not really convinced an economy would be beneficial to CotH, however if we were to try to create one the most important part is giving players something to trade with. Setting up a housing system or whatever is useless if it doesn't force players to interact with each other, which, using houses as the example, wouldn't be the case unless the players themselves were the ones to create said houses. I'm doubtful it would encourage trade either, since most suggestions so far seem to point to interaction with NPCs or OOCly with GMs.

At any rate, it seems to me that the RP that this could bring is already there, if you put the effort in to do it. Looking to Rensins bar why not promote it by start using GHI drinks, there's plenty of neat little effects you could use to make the drinks more 'worthwhile' which might make parting with IC gold easier? For all I know this could already be done, but it's a good suggestions nonetheless and extends to a lot of different things. GHI is damn useful in creating unique and entertaining items that can be used in RP.

[Lunaxy]

I really believe that if the players tried harder, economic would -actually- happen, it's not like motivation or a better system doesn't helps, but I also deeply believe that it's more up to the players than the staff at this point. I mean, the IC money is there, it's just up to us, RPers, to find creative ways of using it! I myself tried RPing characters which had to do with IC money, an alchemist, a jewelcrafter and even a slaver. None of them went completily bad, really. /inb4everyonerollsamerchant

[Krent]

I'm still torn about how player houses creates an economy. It's just an IC gold sink, right? It's not an economy.

And, blast it all, Dae's pretty much covered everything that I wanted to say. We need to approach the economy from the perspective of creating more roleplay.

I think I made the mistake of focusing on housing too much. See, I'm not trying to make an argument for housing itself, but to use it as an example of defining a demand-curve for the server. It was the only 'universal demand' that I could come up with on the spot.

The way housing could possibly create an economy is that it sets up a demand. An economy needs the functions of a supply and a demand in order to exist. So, with housing, a demand is set. All the stuff necessary to get that house--resources, money, goods and services--create the economy.

In order to get the house, someone would need to gather the wood. And then someone else would have to develop that into lumber. And then someone else would have to create goods to fill that house with. All of the hands involved with production, distribution, and selling, creates a whole new subset of RP. Players would have to get involved with one another, set up businesses and firms to manage all of this.

Well, I am not really convinced an economy would be beneficial to CotH, however if we were to try to create one the most important part is giving players something to trade with. Setting up a housing system or whatever is useless if it doesn't force players to interact with each other, which, using houses as the example, wouldn't be the case unless the players themselves were the ones to create said houses. I'm doubtful it would encourage trade either, since most suggestions so far seem to point to interaction with NPCs or OOCly with GMs.

But I don't think the RP really is there. What spurred me to create this topic was how everyone seemed to have an interest in merchant RP and professional trade. The laments that the current IC gold system isn't 'going anywhere'. By setting up an economy, players would have to interact with one another. One of the primary reasons for different nations of human beings to interact with each other is purely economic.

I think I made another flaw in my post in concentrating on the OOC mechanics of it. We already have plenty of IC methods of earning gold. Nearly every event has some sort of IC currency payment. What I'm trying to propose, is not only having something for players to do with that IC currency, but to encourage more Currency generation that operates outside of Events and whatnot. If players were able to set up profitable businesses with tangible goods and services, they could encourage IC Currency distribution in IC manners. Hire workers and whatnot.

The OOC discussion is simply the possible "How", not the "why" or "what".

I really believe that if the players tried harder, economic would -actually- happen, it's not like motivation or a better system doesn't helps, but I also deeply believe that it's more up to the players than the staff at this point. I mean, the IC money is there, it's just up to us, RPers, to find creative ways of using it! I myself tried RPing characters which had to do with IC money, an alchemist, a jewelcrafter and even a slaver. None of them went completily bad, really. /inb4everyonerollsamerchant

Except I would have to respectfully disagree with that notion, because if it were true, then we would have an economy. If players were truly able to utilize their 'creative endeavor' to formulate an economy, it would have already happened in the many months the IC currency system exists. In order to have an economy, we need the supply and demand functions to be actually tangible; imagining them won't work. For the most part, I feel that without an actual server economy, "Merchant RP" and the like will end up becoming a fad.

Players will go "Merchants and professionals are so cool! Lets all make one!" and, for awhile, people will throw around their gold on .addrp item's conjured up. But then, without a solid economic back bone, those merchant characters are going to fade away into oblivion, along with the imaginary goods they created. And then people will start to complain about it all over again.

What I'm trying to argue is that we can't have economic-based RP or characters without an actual economy. And in order to get that economy, we really need to work for it. All of us. Everyone on the server.

...which a lot of people seem opposed to .

Edit: I updated the post to include an argument for why an economy is needed. What purpose it could serve for the RP server, why it would be worth pursuing. Granted, its not the most 'solid' argument...but I'm trying .

[Lunaxy]

Hmm, after giving it thought, I actually do agree - Of course, I still believe that with more effort from the player-base, an economy could get working. Although, I can't help but notice that theres far too much gold currently in game, and it -will- need sinking if said economy gets in action -- There should also be a way to get income/profit, since our only way to get more money is the OOC weekly quest, which pays 15 silver.

The only thing that I worry is that even after all the work and thought given to said system, it still fails to get a decent economy running. I deeply, as deep as I can, hope that somehow we do manage to get an economy running on CotH which does adds RP opportunities and to RP quality itself.

About the merchant thing, I actually didn't meant it quite seriously, after all, if everyone rolled a merchant it'd go back to the supply, demand rule. So much supply, so little demand... But it'd be epic if there were different type of merchants around! That would provide trading and all that!

Thats merely my point of view about the whole thing... if that even made sense, lol.

[Kretol]

Random ideas:
- Wipe current money
- reset money quest
- set quest reward to 1g or less
- possibly audit ease of working up skills
- somehow interweave tradeskills and IC currency
- possibly make raid gear inaccessible and allow craftsmen to make raid level gear
- possibly limit characters back to 2 professions (possibly even 1)
- (more to come; at work)

(Posted from teh phonez!)

[Rigley]

Hrm.

- possibly make raid gear inaccessible and allow craftsmen to make raid level gear

Don't think that would really help anything ICly, heh. Not many people would (and should) be tromping around in the raid gear.

- possibly limit characters back to 2 professions (possibly even 1)
That's an... idea, perhaps, but its hampered somewhat by the fact that the materials can just be bought-- and as was mentioned, many of the items that people would use are not available through crafting, instead being BoE greens and the like.

...If there was somehow a way to make those craftable... That would be an interesting way to work this.

Though -god-, could you imagine the list of forgable items? :B

[Reigen]

Random ideas:
- Wipe current money
- reset money quest
- set quest reward to 1g or less
- possibly audit ease of working up skills
- somehow interweave tradeskills and IC currency
- possibly make raid gear inaccessible and allow craftsmen to make raid level gear
- possibly limit characters back to 2 professions (possibly even 1)
- (more to come; at work)

- Really not fair to people who've been working on it, using what they gain and whatnot.
- Not sure about this one.
- A good idea to make it so less is in the system.
- I will be so sad becuase i use professions OOCly
- I really think in-game professions should be separate from IC professions.
- This seems more an OOC thing than an IC thing.
- Maybe back to two, but one would just be a little much in my opinion.
- COME AT ME BRO.