Kalimdorian Humans and Dark Trolls [General Thoughts/Ideas]

[Unlucky17]

My apologies for the lack of layout in any way, shape, or form. I'm not good at making threads.

Well, to start, I'm going to say that I realise that the Wastewander lore has already been established by Blizzard, saying that they are simply bandits and deserters that came across the ocean with Jaina and the Tirasian marines. (Afraid I can't link information on this, as I don't have one. I'll try to dig one up after I post.)

But Blizzard's answer opened some new questions; what about the nomads in Uldum? How could they have set up almost an entire new culture, including the title 'Caliph' for their leader? And what kind of nickname for a man of the Eastern Kingdoms is Scorpidsting? Wouldn't they have used a name closer to their hearts?

So, my question is, how does CotH handle the Wastewander? Are they just deserters and bandits from the Eastern Kingdoms? If so, where does this leave the (hitherto unknown) nomads of Uldum? Once Cataclysm comes around, they'll have been established for far too long to have arrived with the opening of Uldum. What about their culture in general? While Scorpidsting is a name that you can generally get behind despite, the title 'Caliph' must have had some thought put into it. Thousands of years of kings and queens doesn't turn into a Caliph because of a change in scenery.

Their bid for water with the Goblins can be waved away easily as them being bandits, but who in their right mind would fight a group as powerful as the Steamwheedle Cartel except a native populace that's never come across these snotty little greenskins before in their lives? Not many Eastern Kingdomers, that's for certain, what with the Cartel's reputation of being the baddest folk around.

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My thoughts on Dark Forest Trolls are much shorter. My main question behind them is simply: where are they? Hellscream and his men destroyed an entire tribe of them when they reached Ashenvale, as did Tyrande and Malfurion, which can wave away their physically appearing in WoW (or not appearing), but it's hard or impossible to find even a mention of the ShadowTooth Clan, who fought alongside the Night Elves at the Battle of Mount Hyjal, throughout WoW.

I found this rather odd, as it's probably the most historic moment between the Elves and the Trolls in the past so-and-so amount of years. No matter the number, it's a long time they've been enemies, and suddenly these Trolls, not to mention Forest Trolls, want to aid the Night Elves. That's big.

And yet they don't even appear at the Battle for Mount Hyjal CoT raid (as far as I'm aware). The Night Elves are just as bitter as they used to be towards all kind of Troll. Their extinction could be possible, but it seems a rather weak explanation. The ShadowTooth Clan, for example, live on the slopes of Mount Hyjal, right? So what is there that's bid for their complete destruction but the Elves? And even they would batt a lash at killing them, after they helped in saving the world.

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I'm not asking for them to be a playable race (impossible if a CMC were to be required, as they have no model, simply annoying if not, as the player'd have to explain it every time they RP), nor for the Wastewander to be playable (much easier to explain away, but still impractical with their hostile nature). What I am asking for is a little more light shed on the two populations.

Which brings me on to the actual -idea- of this thread, which was meant to be an idea thread in the first place. A friend (Butts here on the fourms) and I were sitting in Gadgetzan one day, when we got to talking about the Wastewander. We raised each of the points I've raised here, discussing them, taking them to thought, and we decided that they would at least have some sort of settlement out there in Tanaris.

We talked about how they might possibly be open for trade there, as banditry can only get you so far. What is a Wastewander Bandit going to do with that lovely bone necklace he just stole off of a trader running a line from the coast to Gadgetzan? Sell it, of course! But where does he sell it? Does he trade it for food among the other Wastewander? But what does that Wastewander do with her new bone necklace? They've a rough-living culture set up in the desert, I'm sure Caliph Scorpidsting's bandit cousin isn't going to need much with a bone necklace. A Wastewander steals some jewellery, doesn't need it, sells it to a Wastewander who doesn't need it.

This raises the point of where he sells it again. I'm sure one of those foolish Eastern Kingdom folk would be willing to buy Foreman Jim's necklace. And that brings a trickle of gold into the Wastewander village. That provides a boon to their economy, steadily makes them richer, until their small trading outpost grows into a village. That'd bring in more economical spenders, turning that village into a town.

While an actual in-world presence isn't strictly necessary, a tip of the hat to these two cultures can do at least a -bit- of good to RP in their respective areas. And what d'you know? Some neutral Wastewander might open up quite a few RP avenues, from merchant businesses, to a renegade bandit group, to the plethora of other industries you could think of. Smuggling, assassination, desert guides, bodyguards.

Before anyone tells me that the Goblins would snuff out the competition before they could start up, the Wastewander cover -much- more territory than the Goblins and their puny little border town. The Ogres have more of a spread than the greenskins, but they never seemed smart enough to organise a serious pillaging to me. The Southsea Pirates? They and the Wastewander would be more help than hindrance to each other, if they were smart enough to see it. Not saying they are. But if they were silly enough to attack each other, the Southsea's strength lies on the South Sea, not in the deserts that the Wastewander have lived in for Light knows how long.

So where's the Grand Bazaar of the Wastewander Confederacy? Is it even there, or is it just a mirage? Where's the Dark Forest Troll tribes? Have they become extinct, or are they just hiding in their caves? Do mothers tell stories of them hunting at night to scare their children into being good?

I'm posting this in this section because I didn't know where else to put it. I wanted to open it for the community's opinions, not just the GM team, plus it's got an idea in there somewhere.

I realise that some might blame me for taking inspiration from another server. That's not something I'm gonna try to avoid. But the points I've raised are pretty ambiguous surrounding the timezone, and are actually, in my eyes, solidified by the much shorter timeframe. Also, the Trolls thing was my idea, for the most part.

P.S. I thought my thoughts on Dark Forest Trolls would be shorter. Turns out, they weren't. The post was pretty long-winded, too.

TL;DR: I'm not making it any shorter.

[kindle135]

http://www.conquestofthehorde.com/Thread...ans?page=3

What Grakor said sums it up well for the Wastewander humans.

Dark trolls, on the other hand, I'm unsure have ever come up. In Cataclysm Brann Bronzebeard discovers that the Twilight's Hammer has wiped them out at Hyjal and you already mentioned what happened to them in Ashenvale. It's canon that Night Elves evolved from the Dark Trolls so we could assume it's a Homo Sapiens vs. Homo Erectus type ordeal, with the lesser specie dying off.

[Unlucky17]

Ah, but what Grakor says leads us to the Uldum humans, which have been established (in lore) for far longer than Uldum has been open 'to the public'. I can accept his points on the Caliph title, mind, but them folk further south are something I simply cannot bring myself to overlook.

EDIT: It also doesn't mean we can't have a nice desert marketplace for the bandits.

[Rowgen]

I believe the Dark Trolls have been reduced to a state where they are so few that they can't be found in big tribes anymore, but a few individuals are still around, as Wowpedia implies on their page; there are apparently rumors that they are hiding underground somewhere, but little more.

[Unlucky17]

Oh, I'm not growling about their lack of physical appearance in the game, more so much as a lack of any mention in the game. There's no praise from the Night Elves about the ShadowTooth Clan, there's no criticising of them from any Orc or Troll. There's not even a tip of the hat in game, and I was just wondering what CotH's stance would be on them and knowledge of their existence.

[Wuvvums]

Ah, but what Grakor says leads us to the Uldum humans, which have been established (in lore) for far longer than Uldum has been open 'to the public'. I can accept his points on the Caliph title, mind, but them folk further south are something I simply cannot bring myself to overlook.

EDIT: It also doesn't mean we can't have a nice desert marketplace for the bandits.

I am reading the Uldum article and I don't know much about the humans in there and I don't see much mention of them at all.

If it's true that the humans of Uldum have always been there then I would not see them as playable, because right now Uldum is an inaccessible area. It wouldn't sit right on me to let players profiling themselves as coming from a place that's heavily reliant on Cata lore (at least some places like Kezan have been mentioned in Wrath, but don't have an in-game zone). Once we have Cataclysm I wouldn't mind bringing the discussion again to the table but until then we should work with Wrath lore.

[Rigley]

Having played Cata and almost all of Uldum (save the dungeons), I really never saw anyone say that the Wastewanders were there for any longer time than the expeditions x:

Of which includes gnomes and goblins