Equality.

[Harmonic]

Why is there such a need to be big and bad?

I don't get it.

[Norael]

Right. I'm just going to bow out and leave this topic here.

It seems I've just been swarmed with previous/current GMs and forum helpers. I can only hope the players of my generation have something to input.

Thank you for your comments though.

[Bwoyar]

Honestly; I don't see the big deal.

/2cents

[Harmonic]

Fight the powa!

[Clovis]

If you didn't want input from GMs and Forum Helpers, why post it? We're part of the community too, and most of us are only replying to you in hopes we can explain why the equality rule exists.

[c0rzilla]

It seems I've just been swarmed with previous/current GMs and forum helpers. I can only hope the players of my generation have something to input.

I was a player before I was a Forum Helper, y'know. And I'm a player now--well, always have been, purple name or not. As well, is it not a tad rude to call thought-out rebuttals based on valid history "swarming"?

[Sol]

Jesting aside, I'm sorry if you feel like you need to duck out over this. If this is a farewell, then do take care.

[SachikoMaeda]

This is one of those things that won't change. So I'm not gonna argue either side.

What I do:
Have characters with strengths and weaknesses, usually outlined on their profile.
Establish those strengths/weaknesses when taking them to combat RP.
If characters are determined equal, roll to determine winner and trust the fight.
Combat RP is troublesome so I usually avoid it.

I don't like thinking my characters are all equal.
Doran's poor and weak except for spellcasting.
Aendron's a cripple that turns brains into pudding.
Leron will break someone over his knee then get Salor and smash their tables and/or desks.
So on and so forth.

[Grakor456]

It seems I've just been swarmed with previous/current GMs and forum helpers.

I'm sorry if it seems that way, as it wasn't intentional. This is simply a charged topic and a number of people had the desire to want to talk about it at the same time. There is, obviously, no conspiracy to overwhelm the thread with a unified opinion.

That said, I think there is simply a miscommunication issue somewhere there. You seem to be saying "everyone is equal" when the truth is "it's up to the players to properly tier themselves, and presume equality if a victor can't be agreed upon." I would say the problem isn't so much the system in place, so much as everyone wanting to play powerful characters out of the gate instead of choosing more humble options.

[Vladdy]

I have to agree with the OP on this. At least a little bit; I personally don't like it if my characters are roflstomped, but I'll usually play along. But if something like that's going to happen, I want a damned good reason instead of "My character got pissed, lulz." ...Bro, I have characters who get teed of all the time, and if they do something stupid, I usually have them end up getting smacked about a little. (Ulfis insulted somebody in full plate armor and got punched in the gut. He got what he got and I laughed about it.)

I sort of take a neutral point, I suppose. Sometimes you have to play the weaker character; if not so you can have a good laugh, but to help someone's ego just that little bit if they're having a shitty day. (S'all about the little things, aye?) Play a weakling every now and again. It's all fine and dandy. Really. The comedic value you'll both give and receive is worth it. Sure, I got some characters that could be described as 'strong.' But these characters aren't beyond getting beaten to a bloody pulp for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.

AN EXAMPLE being that Markuss was (also) beaten up for calling a certain Argent Paladin a heathen and arguing with him about the most mundane things. This resulted in Markuss being beaten up and thrown over the docks and into the lake. He was knocked out, and he had to be fished out. He finally woke up...And walked down the stairs in his undergarments. Sometimes you gotta play the weaker fellow. (I personally like laughing at some of my character's actions; if only to see them get into a situation like this.)

But I do recognize there's a time to be serious and a time to wisecrack and start badgering; something that I've realized quite recently. So by all means, if your character is a drama-mama, let them do their drama-mamaing. But...Remember that not all characters will like this. Some will be uncomfortable, some may cry IRL at this development, cause' some literature can make a body whimper. There's a lot more to RP then being stronger or weaker physically. Emotional problems, social problems, and a combination of the funny and the serious? It can get real good (or bad) real quick.

May all the luck in the world be with you, Felix.

Also: Hey. Hey CoTH. LOVE YA!

Now that I've gotten this out of my system... Thank you ever so much for taking the time to read this.

[JTJP770]

AN EXAMPLE being that Markuss was (also) beaten up for calling a certain Argent Paladin a heathen and arguing with him about the most mundane things. This resulted in Markuss being beaten up and thrown over the docks and into the lake. He was knocked out, and he had to be fished out. He finally woke up...And walked down the stairs in his undergarments

AHAHA! I remember that, Doyle and Castiel had to fish him out and pump the water from his lungs.

[Krent]

Yeah, this has been an issue that's propped up on COTH over and over again. The reason why you're getting "swarmed" with rebuttals is because this issue has come up in the past. The "problems" of equality have been a part of our discourse for some time, but once the conversation reaches an end, the topic tends to be forgotten about. And then, of course, someone comes along to discuss it again.

'tis the cyclical nature of COTH discourse.

The solution, I think, is most adequately summed up in Grakor's words.

Characters are as equal as you want them to be.

The thing is, in instances where players get to command a "power level," often at times one player demands victory over another, "because I made my character this way."

When we operated without a system of neutrality or equality, there were many instances of outright god-moding within player vs player conflicts. "Trust fights," as they are known, evolved into an unrealistic pissing contest where one player would try to one-up the other player. Neither side would be willing to put aside their ego and accept a loss--in their mind, they were both entitled to "victory," because they had one line in their profile that said "so and so is a veteran of a hundred battles and is therefore scientifically classified as 'the shit.'"

So, the main issue is, in regards to "power levels," is how do we regulate them? The problem that I run into, is that more often than not, characters who start off as being the "veterans of a 100 battles" and "masters of whatever weapon" tend to be the most poorly developed, least interesting characters. Most often (and I'm only speaking to my own experience), the players behind them are lazy and unoriginal with their character--playing a powerful character just for the sake of playing a powerful character. And, in my experience, they tend to be the least skilled when actually emoting combat, doing things such as "/e stabs at you with a sword."

I mean, anyone can say that their character is a badass. Anyone can say, "well, my character is a Death Knight Ninja Assassin Magic Killer who has experience in EVERY WAR IN THE LORE EVAR, to the point where he's attained mastery over the art of the spatula, so, therefore, I should be able to obliterate your character."

And most often, the response is, "Oh yeah? Well, my character is a Demon Hunter Samurai Hitman Sorcerer Warlock, who has experienced EVERY WAR IN THE LORE EVAR and more, to the point where he's attained mastery over the art of the blender. So, therefore, you're the one who's gonna lose!"

God-moding terribleness ensues.

Now, this being one of the cyclical topics of COTH, we have gone through many ways of trying to solve it. One such way was with the prestige system, which started out as a means of facilitating long-spanning character developments, but ended up being abused by players as a ways of "developing" a character into a power house. Players erroneously made the assumption that if they "worked for it," they could develop a prestige character who, only by basis of the time and "development" of that character, was entitled to roll bonuses / stat changes in RP combat.

What this created, at least from my observations, was an entitled class of role players who gained benefits not from the merits of their RP, but from the meta-game aspects of their characters. In other words, a echelon of players who felt like they "deserved" privileges over other players, not because of their role playing skills, but because they were a part of the "in-crowd." Friends with the right people.

This, of course, was not what the prestige system was supposed to be about. The Prestige System was always supposed to be about the journey,and not the destination.

So, in the face of this, after a round of discussion, COTH has come to the consensus of "power level consent." A very subjective concept, one that varies on a case-by-case basis, in which individuals engage in a dialogue about their characters, and decide who should get what advantages. If, for example, you're able to articulate a well-founded argument that your character should have an advantage over another's, based on a set of circumstances or characterizations, you are free to do so.

Example;

"My character is very strong in melee combat. He is a skilled swordsman and knows how to move in platemail. However, he is not experienced in facing the arcane -- so therefore, your mage will have the advantage here."

Or, as an argument;

"My character is a paladin, who's centered on combating the undead. He has many anti-undead spells at his disposal. Since your character is an undead, wouldn't this put you at a disadvantage?"

The issue here, then, is that the only way this discussion and dialogue works is if both players are mature, responsible, communicative and willing to compromise in an rp situation. Which, unfortunately, isn't the standard here, or anywhere else in the RP world.

'tis why we call them "trust fights." In order to have a positive RP experience outside of the grand neutralizer of rolls, you need to be able to trust the individual you're engaged in an IC conflict with. Getting to that level of trust requires commitment.

And frankly?

That's not something I can have with everyone. I only engage in trust combat with people that I know will be able to handle it. And as much as I rage about losing a roll fight to a lazy rp'r who does boring, unimaginative, unoriginal, bland combat emotes ( /e blocks your attack then stabs you with his sword), it's much easier then having to argue with them over how many badass points I should stick on their character just BECUZ MAN BECUZ.

The problem of the original post can be resolved with enough work, communication, and diligence from the players. However, very few are willing to do that.







J-pop for your enjoyment.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhQvgHM_Nd4

[Vladdy]

...Why not just have both of them get roflstomped by an escaped pig-gone-wild who caught a boat out of Kalimdor/The Eastern Kingdoms to this location. THEN this pig ends u-Yeano.

Silliness aside, t'was a good read, Krent.

[Beltharean]

People aren't as bad as other people seem to think they are.

If you have something that increases a character's power for the sake of story hardly anyone is going to say no; If you have something that increases a character's power for no reason at all hardly anyone is going to say yes.

[Grogloki]

It's all in how you RP it out. Elrohir has no roll bonuses, no hp buffs, no extra added special treats. Simple stats don't make the toon, we as a player do. People respect a good story and how you paint your character via the RP that you are in. The fact that Elrohir is nearly 2 thousand years old, practiced magic the entire time, and became a Fel Sworn isn't the reason people respect him as a character. That's the nonsense flare, icing on the cake. It's how he is painted via RP. Reigen who is a Death Knight, Dragonsworn, Noble receives no bonuses for it. She has earned that characters respect via RP. The same can be said for many who I have RP'd with Anna, Jidaeo (who still holds the longest running successful storyline for a noble house and has gotten his arse kicked the entire way), Lucian, Elihannara, Ciaphas, Kagrin (who made his name through a well thought out storyline and epic drama delivered in a dope fashion) Tons of players have put in the time and effort to make their characters who they are. Some enjoy playing weak toons, others strong, some dark, some light but all of these players here on CoTh try to flesh out an earn their toons. If you want a strong toon go for it, it's all in how you work it. Don't just post a profile. Post a storyline and event thread then tie the two together with purpose or start banging out RP with the toon and RP that flare up within the rules allowed. I think leaving would be a mistake, I think you should tackle the idea of a powerful toon from a different angle if you want one. Giving up is never good amigo give it another go!