Equality.

[Harmonic]

People aren't as bad as other people seem to think they are.

If you have something that increases a character's power for the sake of story hardly anyone is going to say no; If you have something that increases a character's power for no reason at all hardly anyone is going to say yes.

Very well put.

[Torches]

Personally I've always liked the idea of having someone greater than you to fear, because when you know that everybody is equal no matter what you won't ever feel the need to be afraid. When I played my felsworn I used to be afraid of the Demon Hunters and Paladins, I treat them as the biggest threat of all because I know they could annihilate my character.

I personally like the idea of these great heroes and great villains for players to rally around, instead what I often hear a lot of is people who seem to be more afraid of something being exploited instead of giving it a chance and seeing if it could be fun. I personally believe it's all down to the player in question, and every good roleplayer knows that their character should have their weaknesses (regardless of being physically stronger or whatever), if they don't have these weaknesses then they were likely never fit for the role in the first place. In a perfect world where players didn't exploit everything and ruin everything for everyone, I still think these stronger enemies/allies could provide a lot of enjoyment because of their unique powers -- and it's not just that, but each person with these unique powers had been approved, and worked to get those powers.

That's just my beliefs, I still love CotH regardless.

[Bwoyar]

For those not reading anything above.

Tl;dr

Talk to the person you're fighting before OOCly to avoid most problems.

[Xigo]

Krent, Sorcerers do not exist in Warcraft. You can not cast magic through sheer good looks and force of personality like in DnD

vouchban

I agree with him, though.

[Krent]

Krent, Sorcerers do not exist in Warcraft. You can not cast magic through sheer good looks and force of personality like in DnD

vouchban

I agree with him, though.

People said the same thing about kung-fu gnomes.

LOOK AT ME NOW SON.

[Scow2]

And we could have players immediately saying "Why did his bonus get approved and not mine? FAVORITISM!"

In kind, you respond by telling them the reasoning behind their character not getting their bonus. There's a rule that a GMs word is final, is there not?

Because this rule is a necessary evil at best. Whenever the GMs have to resort to "Because I said so", especially in the face of a hotly-contested situation (Such as relative character strength), it damages the trust between players and GMs. This server may lack the abuse of power I've seen elsewhere, but a big part of that comes from the atmosphere of mutual respect.


The only place I've had a problem with "All characters are equal" is when it's enforced to the detriment of RP, or pulled in a manner that undermines a character's established, well, character, or blows up a person's sense of agency. On that note... where's a Feedback thread for Operation: Gnomergan? Whatever mixed opinions there may be on individual roll fights, though, I can't help but feel that Mass Rolls as anything other than a soul-sapping, RP-strangling affront to any combat system.

[c0rzilla]

On that note... where's a Feedback thread for Operation: Gnomergan? Whatever mixed opinions there may be on individual roll fights, though, I can't help but feel that Mass Rolls as anything other than a soul-sapping, RP-strangling affront to any combat system.

Likely ImagenAyshun's feedback thread. Though, if that's the feedback, I suggest tweaking it so it isn't so insulting.

[Clovis]

Whatever mixed opinions there may be on individual roll fights, though, I can't help but feel that Mass Rolls as anything other than a soul-sapping, RP-strangling affront to any combat system.

I've used 'Group Rolls' in a few of my past events with some decent effect. It really helps speed things a long when you're trying to micromanage a huge group of players. I mean, sure, we could do individual rolls when we have a group of 15+ players and a lot of combat ground to cover...I mean, it'd take forever of course.

....But, getting off topic! Glad to see this thread's garnered a modest sum of solid conversation and differing opinions that are actually being explained and supported.

[Loxmardin]

I don't fight often, but when I do... I try to be as humble as I can possibly be. I try to be realistic with Magic VS. Melee, for instance.

And I also find it hilarious to spruce things up a bit. Once, me and another were fighting in the STV arena and people upstairs were taking bets on who'd win. So we decided in Party to make it a draw, just to mess up their bets.

Great success.

[Ural]

I don't like discussing to find a reasonable outcome beforehand. I don't like character warnings. I don't like perfect relationships. I don't like retcons. I don't like auto-win events. Anyone that has gotten in an IC fight with me, probably thinks I don't like winning, either. Now this all has to do with one thing and you can probably guess the format it's going to take. I don't like spoilers.

[Holynexus]

To be honest, I have enough of being told to shut up whenever I say my character would have more chances to beat another character.

The idea itself is fine, sure, in lack of a better system (and everyone should get an OOC shot at victory), but honestly, stop being zealots people.

Death Knights -will- kill the crap out of your puny farmer, and no OOC rule will change that. It's being logic, NOT being trying to win at everything. Make the difference, and make this server a better place. Thank you very much.

On this note, 600th post.

[Torches]

Death Knights -will- kill the crap out of your puny farmer, and no OOC rule will change that. It's being logic, NOT being trying to win at everything. Make the difference, and make this server a better place. Thank you very much.

Like I said earlier, I think a lot of this seems to revolve too much around what players will exploit rather than what is believable and actually realistic. Yes it's fantasy, but even though it's fantasy you still need to be believable to some extent.

If a farmer were to fight a DK, in reality, they'd run. Run or die. Sorry to those of you who may disagree but it's the truth.

[Sol]

You hear this anecdote a lot, but I honestly could not recall the last time I saw a Westfall hick try to take on a saronite-clad juggernaut of death with a pitchfork. :P

Unless the Appleflows have been up to no good again.

[Loxmardin]

From what I can tell, the issue isn't so much in the "rule", or "principle", but rather the way that people decide to use it against eachother. I know a good few people have gotten very nervous every time something shows up either in-game or in a profile on the forums that so much implies that "This guy might just be stronger than me". A lot of people who roleplay and get their characters into battle are looking for the glory of the win, though this is of course not true for everyone. Some people enjoy the humility of defeat just as much as victory, but it's when two people who want to win fight against eachother that things get very complicated.

People who like to win often design their characters in such a way that they're made to win, either by their skillset or their attitude, or both. So, in these cases, we get an Unstoppable Force meets Immovable Object situation. It's not going to end well, with or without the rule that claims the equality of all PCs. What the rule is supposed to prevent is, like people have already said, situations where people can point at their profile and say "It doesn't matter how much you fight, how well you write, or how much you reason for your character's skill; I'm stronger than you, and that's that--I'm going to win this fight".

We aren't going to enforce things like that. If you can all agree on which character has the upper hand with the use of some healthy common sense or realism, go right ahead. The GM team won't enforce it, however. The rule of equality is essentially a way of removing the need for moderation from the arena of RP combat, because it's more fair if the people participating get the chance at solving it on their own. This isn't always possible, as we've already stated, but the problem we have with people liking to win won't go away even if we start enforcing certain characters as "superior" to others (something we simply won't revert back to--in my own opinion, such a system is unfair and exclusive and serves no other purpose than to divide people).

Some people can't Trust Fight. For a Trust Fight to work, all parties involved have to trust in the common sense and realism of the others, or it won't work. Not everyone is willing to admit defeat, and most of us don't even have the same references when we fight. We have different ideas of what certain classes are capable of or the properties of certain weapons, armours or even magic spells. Disagreements and dramatic disputes are going to happen, seeing as WoW has given us a lot of tools that can be used in so many different ways---it all comes down to the creativity/interpretation of the individual. Everyone fights in a different way, so there's no way to make a fair system that supports all of this and gives everyone the same fair chance they deserve.

I know there was something else I wanted to say. But I forgot.

[Holynexus]

You hear this anecdote a lot, but I honestly could not recall the last time I saw a Westfall hick try to take on a saronite-clad juggernaut of death with a pitchfork. :P

Unless the Appleflows have been up to no good again.

It's a true story, only it was OOC. I was told to basically get out of these for stating that.

And to be honest, I think people need more common sense in general.

But I'll agree that the system in place now is still the best we've got. People just need to let off some steam, and understand that not every character is equal. It doesn't make it unfun, it doesn't make it unfair, it doesn't even make it pointless.

The irony is that people want to win so bad they have to be equal to each other to prevent them from going in endless debates that would essentially be RPs narrated by a news anchor. :P