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Reigen Revisits: Resurrection
#16
If I remember correctly, and it's probably been stated here among everyone's major text walls... but the reason we had this rule is because we had players that would constantly die, often by getting themselves into situations where they would get killed by other players. They were trying to troll the more 'dangerous' characters, and in doing so would eventually be killed (through the 'CW' rule), only to be resurrected and to come back divulging details about the guild, effectively metagaming. So, this was put in to place in order to make sure people weren't just going around killing themselves willy-nilly.

NOW, on the -other- hand we had people a long while back trying to get -around- this, and tell people they couldn't resurrect if they were completely dismembered, if they didn't have 'X' artifact, yadda yadda, so on and so forth. (Edit: We had to make it clear EVERYONE was entitled to a resurrection, and that noone could take this away. Also, we wanted it to be easy enough so people didn't feel like it was a MAJOR gap to overcome, but enough of a deterrent that people would abuse character death constantly. Think of it like a padlock on a gate.) One of the reasons I loath to see this become more complicated, or less complicated is because every time someone dies it's already a dramatic issue if it's between two players. The last thing we need is to make it more simple, or more complicated and go -right- back to the drawing board with an imperfect system that will never be perfect.

Honestly, this is a scenario where I say let sleeping dogs lay. Why? Because honestly it's one of those situations where -Someone will be unhappy with the outcome- no matter what. The way people die and res on CoTH, or rather the amount of times it happens or people go on PKing sprees, it's only a matter of time before we have everyone crippled ICly and hobbling around like the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Edit 2: Also, I think complicating it further would deter people further from character death. It's already something we rarely see people accept, so wouldn't this just make people be even less accepting of letting a character go for a while?
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#17
(06-17-2013, 06:53 AM)Rensin Wrote: NOW, on the -other- hand we had people a long while back trying to get -around- this, and tell people they couldn't resurrect if they were completely dismembered, if they didn't have 'X' artifact, yadda yadda, so on and so forth.

I remember quite a few instances of folks hacking bodies apart and scattering their pieces across continents, and more often than not it was the "holy" characters doing so to "dark" characters.

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#18
(06-17-2013, 01:38 AM)Grakor456 Wrote:
(06-16-2013, 11:11 PM)Dae Wrote: And really, what does that have to do with resurrection? If someone was abusing characters and storylines for the sake of their own ego, I really don't see why the issue lies in the resurrection policy as opposed to the player in question.

Because we do not wish to support bad RP habits, in short.

But the situation you mentioned with the good guy paladin fighting bad guy warlock didn't actually involve any character resurrection. Every part of policy can potentially be used to support bad RP habits.

That being said, I'm all for preventing blatant abuse, and I add my voice to the number of people who would like players to have to go through GMs before resurrecting their characters, without making a significant change to the current policy. Though I would also like part of the resurrection post to involve an OoC explanation of why your character died.
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#19
I've gotta agree with Dae on this one. If we really wanted to we could dissect practically everything and say "This could potentially make for bad RP". Rather than limiting things we should monitor them.
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#20
The idea that has most interested me in this thread is that of making Resurrection into a quest-like objective. The search for an item or something along those lines to facilitate returning from the dead would make the event more memorable and more significant, in my opinion. I realize that the server's stance that death should not be an avenue to create character development, but if you're going to die and come back, you might as well make something of it, no?

I think that instead of placing regulations and rules upon a system that is, in my opinion, entirely functional, we should encourage people to make a real story-line out of it. Resurrection, despite going against the laws of nature and lore in most cases, is a pretty cool concept. I think that we should encourage players to see it as an ordeal for all characters involved and an opportunity for some really interesting storytelling, rather than like a drive-thru where a priest can just zap a person back to life.

Edit: dat grammar
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#21
I'd be hesitant against making it like a quest objective...

I mean since the character is dead, it would be up to somebody else to handle it, right? And it could be possible that character X's friends may be quite busy OOC and IC. I think it would also be tedious if someone felt they had to make an alt because no one else could assist character X.
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#22
That's a valid point. I think it would be cool if it was a player-run event, or something like that, with the deceased character's player DMing it. Again, I'm not saying this should be a rule or anything, but it would be fun to encourage.

Perhaps not something that should be enforced, but something people could try. An optional thing.
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#23
I have a question. What if someone SAYS a character was killed, but then the actual person who says they were killed says "I have no idea what you are talking about." What do you guys do?

Otherwise I have no problem with the current resurrection system. I find it hard to justify a resurrection if the person was mangled horribly (say, by a bomb) or eaten by a monster (say, a devilsaur.) What about Forsaken and DK characters? Do they have a chance for resurrection? I just thought about that.

"You are not allowed to retcon a character death once the death has happened."

I'm assuming if we disagree with this, we as the players can of course take it to a private discussion? Like, say if we suddenly dislike a person, and completely disagree with them killing our guy, or, if the guy who killed us leaves the server forever, thus leaving me with a dead character.

How about a time limit for a resurrection? Let's say our guy dies, and we have, oh, a week or two, maybe three, to decide if we really want him dead? We shouldn't be able to kill a guy off, leave for two years, and then come back and say "Guess who's back?" unless the GM's say it's cool. If you're going to declare your guy is dead, he should stay dead, at least that's what I think. No take backs yo.
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#24
A lot of the issues we've had with the resurrection policy can be solved by forcing GM approval for the resurrections. That way, we can make sure everything's in order and bring excessive deaths and resurrections up for discussion with the players concerned. I agree with Dae's suggestion of detailing the character's death, as well. The how's and why's (and consequences) are more important to me than the IC part of the post.
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#25
(06-17-2013, 03:04 PM)alpharius Wrote: I have a question. What if someone SAYS a character was killed, but then the actual person who says they were killed says "I have no idea what you are talking about." What do you guys do?

Otherwise I have no problem with the current resurrection system. I find it hard to justify a resurrection if the person was mangled horribly (say, by a bomb) or eaten by a monster (say, a devilsaur.) What about Forsaken and DK characters? Do they have a chance for resurrection? I just thought about that.

"You are not allowed to retcon a character death once the death has happened."

I'm assuming if we disagree with this, we as the players can of course take it to a private discussion? Like, say if we suddenly dislike a person, and completely disagree with them killing our guy, or, if the guy who killed us leaves the server forever, thus leaving me with a dead character.

How about a time limit for a resurrection? Let's say our guy dies, and we have, oh, a week or two, maybe three, to decide if we really want him dead? We shouldn't be able to kill a guy off, leave for two years, and then come back and say "Guess who's back?" unless the GM's say it's cool. If you're going to declare your guy is dead, he should stay dead, at least that's what I think. No take backs yo.

Lemmi address this:

It's always a good idea to log when a character is killed so you can clearly show you gave a CW in case they dispute the death. If a person claims they killed a character they did not, that's a no-go on their part.

Forsaken and DKs can be resurrected, yes. Not only can they be resurrected by necromancy, DKs have the ability to res and they can both be ressed by the Light still, but the drawbacks will be far worse.

If you agree to a death, accept the CW and die, there can be no retcon of the death. Be careful who you accept CWs from. Otherwise the only time deaths can be retconned is during a 'soft restart/full restart', like what happened from WOTLK to cata.

Under the current policy, those are the answers to the first three points in your post.
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#26
Cool, thanks Reigen! Always there to answer my questions, I love it <3
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#27
(06-17-2013, 03:04 PM)alpharius Wrote: "You are not allowed to retcon a character death once the death has happened."

I'm assuming if we disagree with this, we as the players can of course take it to a private discussion? Like, say if we suddenly dislike a person, and completely disagree with them killing our guy, or, if the guy who killed us leaves the server forever, thus leaving me with a dead character.

I had a relevant experience with this.

A good while back, a character of mine was killed in a very unfair situation. I'll admit I walked into it to give the killer a chance, even though I was warned. Benefit of the doubt, and all. Ended up being terribly outnumbered in a trap, and there was little reason for the killing.

Bit of time passes, character's raised, drama happens, the killer's player is banned for said drama.

Eventually, the banned player put forth an appeal and came back. After some discussion with both GMs and the player, we decided that that situation provided little for current RP, and we retconned it.

Moral of the story: yes, we do have that rule so that people don't use retcons as cheap resurrections. Even so, if you sit down and have a nice, thorough talk, you'll likely be able to have some adjustments.
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#28
(06-17-2013, 11:23 AM)Dae Wrote: But the situation you mentioned with the good guy paladin fighting bad guy warlock didn't actually involve any character resurrection.

It does, just in a roundabout way.

If you want to kill your own character as part of an event, that's fine. We don't stop you from doing that if you think that's good storytelling. But, again, death isn't character development. It's character execution. If you're going to kill your own character, we'll hold you to that, because it was a situation that you had full control of and it was your choice to execute the character.

In contrast, if someone else kills your character, it wasn't entirely in your hands, and therefore the death is given more lenience because of this.
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#29
I liked the two Ress maximum from back in the day. Three lives is more than enough in my mind, and people tended to give death real meaning. Now death just really isn't a threat to a character, I haven't seen someone honestly worried about a character death in a long, long time (New players who aren't completely aware of the rules aside)
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#30
(06-17-2013, 05:07 PM)Grakor456 Wrote:
(06-17-2013, 11:23 AM)Dae Wrote: But the situation you mentioned with the good guy paladin fighting bad guy warlock didn't actually involve any character resurrection.

It does, just in a roundabout way.

If you want to kill your own character as part of an event, that's fine. We don't stop you from doing that if you think that's good storytelling. But, again, death isn't character development. It's character execution. If you're going to kill your own character, we'll hold you to that, because it was a situation that you had full control of and it was your choice to execute the character.

In contrast, if someone else kills your character, it wasn't entirely in your hands, and therefore the death is given more lenience because of this.

So... the opportunity for resurrection on the server is for the sake of allowing characters a second chance then? But server policy already states that no one but yourself should have the final say in if your character dies or not. If we have this freedom with our characters, why should we even have the possibility of resurrection if death is, at the heart of things, up to us?

No, I don't think that people should just use death in lieu of dealing with other character issues, but I very strongly feel that if someone puts their character in a situation where they're probably going to get killed, (The step beyond a CW or events where accepting the possibility of death is a prerequisite to participation) death should be a life-changing event.
At the end of WotlK, Sylvanas's outlook on life, death and undeath changed after she died, but got a second chance from thy Valkyr. Blizzard themselves used death and resurrection as a way of changing a character, if not developing her. If we're going to allow characters to delve into magics as powerful as a proper resurrection, we should expect that it will change their character forever, both in mind and body.

Perhaps instead of full-on death, we should maybe consider some kind of "critical condition" scenario for characters who wouldn't benefit from the grand psychological (and to a degree, physical) consequences of being raised from the dead.
Have basically the same process with lasting drawbacks, and still needing hardcore healing and recuperation time, without spirit-leaving-the-body degree of dead. If someone is critical, do an IC post of their process of healing/recovery on the forum, and get an approval from a GM before playing the character again. (should that part of character resurrection be implemented, as I hope it will be) We already have to recover the body to do IC resurrections and even in reality, the human body has survived some extreme conditions before receiving medical attention. There's plenty of posts I see in the resurrection section of the forums where a "brought back from death's door" status would both be more suitable for the situation and be far more plausible for our characters to pull off than a true "rise from your grave!" scenario.
This would also bring up the possibility of having characters without access to resurrection magic being able to be the "ressurector" in this situation, as a comatose person still has a chance as long as someone is there to nurse them back to health.
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