A Reckoning in Redridge: Part I

[Psychyn]

QQ. That's it. House Braxton now supports the Horde. @Vladdy

Lok'Tar Ogar!

[Grogloki]

Hahaha

[Vladdy]

@Psychyn: THAT'S IT. YOU'RE DISOWNED!

[Hawk]

I strongly disagree with armour bonuses, personally. My issue is that it immediately gives players an advantage just for stepping into the battle. It's true that it's more realistic yes, but frankly when has the Warcraft universe ever adhered to realism? What if I don't want to play my Warrior in this event? Putting people at a disadvantage just for playing their character seems rather unfair.

Typically, a lack of defence is often balanced out by large offensive power. Mages are a good example here. Squishy? Yeah, but they can kill you in an absurd amount of ways. Unless you plan on giving some sort of bonus to the squishies as well, I don't feel it's a very fair way of doing things. Throughout the event every character was getting hit an equal amount of times, as well. It wasn't just, "X player and Z player are struck" it was, "Entirety of group X is hit in a way the DM says you are". Melee characters are hit just as much as ranged characters.

Rolling low sucks. Trust me, I'm a damn professional at it, but I didn't go into events requesting bonuses to make up for it. It's just the way of the dice. :P Whilst I certainly agree that armoured characters SHOULD be able to soak up more damage than a Rogue, I feel it should be done in RP emotes rather than the dice. There's no HP being tracked here, it's all done by trust.

TL;DR: No armour bonuses. Let the DM RP you taking less damage than a squishy would without being indestructible. Seems more fair.

[Psychyn]

Warcraft not being realistic isn't much in the way of an argument, it is realistic in its own world and ways which don't apply to the one we live in. Why do I bother wearing this heavy, expensive stuff, when a cloth user has the same protection? Heck. My toon could have gone in naked and suffered from the same penalties and bonuses as everyone else; The bonuses aren't meant to force you onto a specific character for a specific event, they are more so meant to make you think about your actions.

Full plate? Yeah, you might want to take the front lines more then staying behind, casting spells though it isn't forcing you to do that by adding penalties onto your spells or such. Stay in front of others, draw attention, protect others by being this plate-wearing threat on the field.

Leather rogue? Ever heard of evasion? Use the actual ability and gain a buff to your defenses. How about shadowstep? Vanish?

Cloth magie? Yeah, you may want to stick behind and cast spells; Though who's to say you don't cast ice-armor or something similar on your clothes to up your protection, to allow you to stick on the front lines. Mirror image? Cast slow on your enemies to make them.. well, slower, obviously, and grant yourself more time to react.

Priests? Shields. Lotta shields. There's the barrier as well, provide an AoE shield to your buddies.

Every class really has something going for it (I literally mean every class, I only listed a few), it is up to the player to make use of the abilities available to them; Think about your abilities, your positioning, what your character would do and go for it. It still allows you to be massively creative during the events. Any of the above things would fit the bill in my head for a defensive bonus on your rolls; You can get the same advantage but the idea is that with armor, it is just more constant. (I reckon it like that at least, not like the details have been worked out nor is the concept fleshed out entirely. I'm not the DM either.)

I haven't asked for a bonus within the event so I can't say I like the insinuation of such but I was asked for feedback on what I deem to be an improvement and there it is; By all means, if I could choose upon failing a defense roll if I wanted to get wounded or not then it would arguably do the same thing.

I'd probably RP along the lines off:
Fail first defense roll - armor soaks it up.
Fail second defense roll, equally low or worse number - Armor takes damage or wound is inflicted.
Fail massively - Get struck in a weak spot and get wounded

Or such, but I didn't have the impression that I could do that. It was a "lose your defense roll, get wounded." situation which made the entire armor and the shield she carried with her useless; against weaponry that arguably couldn't really get past the equipment. (It feels less so with weaponry when attacking, for it feels much more common to miss a target, to get parried or even blocked; But armor-wise, why bother wearing heavy armor if plate is as easily shredded as cloth?)

I don't see how making clothing make sense detracts from an event. I reckon that'll be an endless discussion though. I think its been done before at least. xD Anyway, with this I guess it is largely a "lean to the left" or "lean to the right" side of the situation so I'm not sure what else I can add to it. I'd personally prefer it.

[Grogloki]

I like what you're implying Psychyn. Having come from 1st and 2nd edition DnD as a boy to RPing on here I must say your ideas for a more in depth approach is something I can dig heaviy Lol. I'd like to see how it works and look forward to trying it out should it be allowed. Either way.... DEATH TO GNOLLS! *is preparing for another mass slaughter as we speak!* lol Also (and lastly) I rather enjoyed how you touched on WoW being realistic in it's own universe etc. I think that's often missed. Nicely done!

[Hawk]

Warcraft not being realistic isn't much in the way of an argument, it is realistic in its own world and ways which don't apply to the one we live in. Why do I bother wearing this heavy, expensive stuff, when a cloth user has the same protection?

If such were the case then the plate wearing classes would rule all. :P Except they don't because of all those abilities you just listed. Non-plate classes have abilities that give them protections on par with plate classes, as you just said. However, the plate-classes also gain abilities that put them on par with the offensive classes. Take for example Heroic Leap. Can a guy in full plate armour leap 20 feet from a stand still? 'course not!

This is why I said Warcraft is not highly realistic. At it's core, it is a fantasy game, and fantasy games tend to give you outrageous abilities - and also put you in strange situations. If you look at each class, they all tend to have a balance of offensive and defensive. (Even the tanks output some shocking DPS.) You say Warcraft has it's own realism, which you're not wrong about, but you're forgetting that in this Warcraft realism (as you put it), an assassin can jump into the battlefield and take less wounds than a fully armoured man.

I get what you're saying, it's hard to believe a Mage can soak up more damage than a Paladin just because a dice dictates it, but it's honestly the best way of making sure everyone's on an even playing field. Just giving an armour bonus is kind of like taking only one part out of a much grander combat system, and sort of reminds of the Prestige system of giving bonuses just because you're X class.

Example. I'm a hunter with a scoped rifle on a hill far away and you're in the middle of the fray. It's messy, there's blood everywhere and you're dealing with the big bulky people because it's all you can reach. Should I be able to kill people easier? Well yeah, I should. I'm totally unimpeded, have a grand view of the battlefield and can tactically decide what to kill and when, but there's no roll bonuses to attack being given. :B See what I mean? There's plenty of arguments to be made about this example, yeah, but I've hopefully gotten the point across.

But hey! At the end of the day it's CappN's who's the DM, not me. :P I'm just voicing my own displeasure of an uneven playing field. There must be balance, as a tree hug- I mean Druid might say.

Here's my feedback for the event mate, how about we're allowed to emote our own damages unless it's a specific attack? Removes the need for any bonuses. Unless you're actually planning on putting a twist on how we roll that benefits everyone, in which case, I'm all for it! I do love systems that are a bit more personal.

TL;DR: Armour bonus is too biased. If you're giving defensive rolls give attacking rolls too. IMO!

[Psychyn]

Yeah, I get what you are saying. Perhaps the second bit of my post would arguably be more fitting then. That even if you lose a defensive roll, you pick whether you get wounded or just take armor damage; or hell. I don't know.

I still like the idea of a bonus depending on gear/equipment, but I got to agree with the stance of that if it is done to one part, it probably has to be done to all. I fully agree during PvP events there should be an equal playing field; But against NPC's, I tend to just go wild with it during my own events. Arguably, I only hold small party events so that is much easier to keep track of then.

I'm not against a Mage soaking up more damage, far from; If they use ice armor and such effectively then by all means. I just wish I heard a "CLUNK" and "CLANK" coming from the armor more often rather then it being a tin foil suit. :P I think over my time here, my armors in general have been pierced/broken/breached more than they ever got dented/scratched. Or iunno.

Edit: Maybe I should start using my defensive-wins in the sense that the armor held back the blow. .. Having written all that, -that- would probably solve the feeling. >.> Then again, is it a defensive win when you get battered and bruised all under the armor? Maybe we should open up a "DMs and Dice" thread.

Seemed appropriate:

Spoiler:

Edit2: @Grogloki -- I am a sucker for D&D yes. ^^ In two groups at the moment, so any armor ideas, weapon ideas probably get inspired from there. It ain't for everyone, but personally.. I always get enthusiastic when I get to D&D again.

. If you're giving defensive rolls give attacking rolls too. IMO!

Wouldn't be against it really. Maces against skeletons, fire against metal. We were fighting Gnolls, you probably would have a good fear/terror effect by throwing fireballs at such creatures where as the Light.. Could be effective but not per se the best way to deal with them. (So in my case, Scarlett being less effective yet a Mage having an easier time there; To turn it around later perhaps when.. Hell, we fight Magi. She's got a shield to block stuff with, where as Magi can get counterspelled or silenced by the enemy Gnoll Magi. )

Or in the case of ranged; By all means, though if I was the DM would add in a little surprise for the people on the hillside sooner or later so they aren't too encouraged to camp. ^^ Then again, I don't plan my events fully so I never know what ends up happening myself.

In a nutshell; If it can be done in a reasonable non-chaotic way, then I'd be more then happy to see defensive/attacking bonuses/penalties. The hardest thing is probably finding the balance in people's abilities, so everyone can still be effective even if they have to improvise or try a method they normally don't often use. Fire instead of ice, ranged instead of backstabbing.

For example; If Scarlett were to face creatures that are resistant to the Light, she'll have to adjust whether she likes it or not. She normally casts the Light as often and as much as she can to smite her enemies with; But in that case, she'd have to shield herself more often and focus on melee combat instead. The Light can still be effective, just differently.

In a Mage's case: Fire, Arcane, Frost; Pick one. Priest? Shadow or wands. If your character wouldn't use any of the others, are they smart enough to have come up with a backup if their preferred style doesn't work? They managed to specialize on one thing, so I reckon they would have thought at one point or another "Huh, what if this doesn't work?" and planned to either adapt their spells to still work, or have a back-up weapon of some kind.

Though age is also a factor with that. Scarlett has seen enough to figure out when she has to adapt. .. Rambling, rambling.

[Grogloki]

I'm excited to RP with Scarlett and see how she unfolds through this event chain. And maybe they will think of something to do with defensive rolls or at least open up our toons abilities more for bonuses etc.

[Hawk]

though if I was the DM would add in a little surprise for the people on the hillside sooner or later so they aren't too encouraged to camp. ^^

This is something I also did whenever I was DMing events, as well. :B

As I said, I'm not totally against the idea of bonuses, I just feel it should be something everyone has.

That tin foil Darth Vader tho'.

[CappnRob]

Rest assured, if I implemented armor bonuses I'd have other stuff to make sure things are fair for everyone else too. Attack bonuses for mages who keep their distance or something like that, idk. If I had my computer back and the free time this would be a great file for me to mull over!

[Psychyn]

Psst. Pen and paper, it can be used to write stuff on and prepare for stuff as well! I know it is old fashioned and you need to hold like, a pen, and the paper may crumble, the ink may stain, you may make typos and its all in all so inconvenient; But hey. If you are getting desperate. :P

[Grogloki]

This still active?

[c0rzilla]

It is, but Cappn's computer's been hijacked. Until it's returned, this is on a pause.

[CappnRob]

I'm back! And with being back comes a new event! Gimmie a few days to plan something out to compensate for the lost month and we'll be back on track!