Community Inquiry: Forsaken Role Play and its future on CotH

[Loxmardin]

I think another big factor that deters and draws people in equally when it comes to Forsaken is the inherent tragedy that comes with them as a race. Once it gets to emotion, identity crisis or self-exploration in the face of their undead state and the constantly looming threat of losing their minds forever... Well. It's just a very sad state of being, if you indulge in what's left of your humanity at all.

Some Forsaken just choose to ignore it, or lack the ability to reconnect with that part of themselves.

I only really have one Forsaken character that's stuck with me for any length of time. I tried a few on and off through the years on CotH but none of them really stood out to me or worked in RP. Naneth, my Necromancer, has been able to earn my love and affection, however. Mostly because her personality and special situation just... allows her to appear in more social settings and she can blend in if she wants to, crack a few jokes and weird people out just for the heck of it. Then she gets serious again and waddles off to find specimen to kill, cut up and examine as part of her study as a Necromancer, trying to develop sturdier and stronger minions by educating herself.

She's the type that just doesn't care. Which is exactly why she can fit in almost anywhere, including more adventure-driven RP. And politics, if only to mess things up. And war, because she gets to poke things below the ribs once they're dead.

[Dae]

I can't help but feel like Cata lore is really awful for the Forsaken. It's like "yeah, you hate living dudes and the Alliance hates you even more and the Horde worries that Sylvanas is the next Lich King."

...And then it's all pretty much dropped.

A big part of why I haven't played Flora in forever is because the logical step in her development would be to come to some new world view based on the recent actions of the Forsaken, the Alliance response, and how the Forsaken culture settles down after this volatile situation dies down. But that isn't going to be addressed to a satisfactory degree...

I suppose my point here is that Forsaken Military doesn't have the same freedom it had in WotlK. Having evn just a neutral attitude towards the living of Lordaeron could be seen as sympathizing with the enemy. But Blizz's has given such Forsaken no place to go, except maybe the Argents, but I haven't even seen a single bit of lore talking about Forsaken who disagreed with Sylvanas's recent actions and actually done anything about it.
(if you have evidence to the contrary, I would be genuinely happy to see it)

To me, though, I feel like the Forsaken are extremely versatile characters if you take the time to really contemplate the idea of mundane Undeath. Why wouldn't a dead guy want to learn more about the nature of Life from a Druid? Or explore the relationship between ancestor spirits and elemental ones, seeing as they're dead, too? They also have means to discover a whole side of Azeroth as seen my cultures they may have never of known as living members of the Alliance. In my experience, a genuine passion for knowledge in a character can result in great RP between the most unlikely of races.

The biggest hurtle to this in my opinion is that we have to deal with the ramifications of OoC factions that make Blizz less inclined to, say, have a Forsaken making a pilgrimage to Alliance- owned major chapels. Or, you know, for the newly rezzed Forsaken to not just go "screw you guys, you killed me and my family. I'm siding with the Alliance." the "malleable state after rezzurection" can only have so much mileage ICly.

You know, back in Alpha, the Forsaken were able to speak Common as well as able to trade with Alliance characters? It just speaks volumes to me about how much OoC factions have influenced this race.
Judging by the original plans Blizz had, the dominant feature of the Forsaken would have been their being undead humans, with the cultural zealotry superseding it in prominence due to fitting better with game mechanics. It's not all bad, really; the Forsaken's rancid flavor was tempered by this, after all.
:P

[Jonoth]

I think that using the war angle gives a lot more opportunity for non-combat than it would originally seem. Too often when people talk about war guilds, there is that stigma of "my character doesn't fight, therefore he/she will have nothing to do". There's plenty to get done! Gathering resources, diplomatic meetings, propaganda, not to mention that a character doesn't need to be in a war to be affected by it (the Warcraft setting as a whole is largely based on this). Your character doesn't like the fighting? Then how about the Forsaken equivalent of Flower Power? A Forsaken anti-war movement would be interesting as all hell, especially in counter to a pro-war one. The warmongers still go off and do their fighting, and you get interesting tension at home from those that either don't want to fight or maybe aren't particularly fond of Sylvannas' leadership. Non-combat conflict can be awesome in the right context, meaning when it spills into daily life and not just talk.

[Grakor456]

I haven't even seen a single bit of lore talking about Forsaken who disagreed with Sylvanas's recent actions and actually done anything about it.
(if you have evidence to the contrary, I would be genuinely happy to see it)

http://wowpedia.org/Argent_Apothecary_Judkins

Blizzard has a nasty habit of painting entire races in broad, negative strokes, especially for the Horde. It's an unfortunate consequence of Garrosh/Sylvannas being dicks and the story of WoW focusing on the military. So it's kind of important to remember that not all Forsaken are "RAAAAGH DEATH TO THE LIVING!" just as not all orcs are "ORC SURPREMACY!"

Judkins was one of my favorite NPCs while questing in EPL back when I played Cata, even though he has relatively few lines.

[c0rzilla]

Why wouldn't a dead guy want to learn more about the nature of Life from a Druid?

I would be up for this, though no guarantees of a warm IC reception.

[Dae]

Why wouldn't a dead guy want to learn more about the nature of Life from a Druid?

I would be up for this, though no guarantees of a warm IC reception.

In my experience with Flora, genuine curiosity from an undead character was first met with hostility, then "oh god she's serious. Wat". It helps that she's a farmer and thus values healthy land, though.

The IC stereotypes of Forsaken work in one's favor here, as someone breaking these perceptions tends to really catch other characters off guard. I don't expect to see Druids and Forsaken to be bffs as factions, but I do believe that there's great potential in character development that plays off an individual druid's beliefs.

[CappnRob]

All these wonderful replies! Allow me to comment on a few -

But despite how you described the Black Harvest as being defined by 'basic war and conquest', what I was really trying to pull off with its storyline was some soul-searching for the Forsaken race as a whole for identity and meaning.

. . . That being said, it was so much easier to get things (like what I've just been gooily nostalgising over) rolling in the first place with regular fighty events to frame them around and a few well-placed shouts of THE KING IS DEAD LONG LIVE THE QUEEN. RP on CotH has always been pretty event-driven anyway, and being loud and proud and aggressive is a surefire way to get people's attention.

A keen observation. My favored memories of the Harvest were also in fact the more subdued, quieter, social role plays as opposed to the violent battlefield ones, and I attempted to recapture that with Seminars; however you are correct: The more sublime and character-based RP was born out of the momentum of war and adventure RP. Something I should consider.

My main issue with RPing the forsaken is I can't really get into the fanaticism most are played as. My sole forsaken just doesn't fit with that kina RP nor do I really enjoy it. War and combat do not interest me what so ever to be fully honest.

This is an interesting point to bring up. While most Forsaken are dedicated feverishly to Sylvanas and whatever cause she leads them towards, it certainly does not account for -all- Forsaken. As with almost any race, there will be outliers and exceptions to the cultural norm. So I now ask this: what sort of RP can be provided that can accomodate for outlier Forsaken characters? The basic vague ideas always apply: adventurer, wanderer, that sort of thing, but what can we do to include non-standard Forsaken into the standard Forsaken image without pushing them away? Orcs and humans and other races get productive RP outside their comfort zone, after all.

Forsaken that come together for reasons other than being full of angst, hating everyone else and yelling about death to the living.

This was in fact one of my goals with the Seminars events and the Embrace of Shadows guild. Clearly, I missed my mark, so I ask you: How could I (and the community as a whole) improve upon this shortcoming? Like Sol, I see a vast amount of potential and depth for the Undead, the trick is simply marketing it properly.

The first problem is that Horde RP is almost always military-focused.

Very true! However, to connect to what Sol said earlier about how Black Harvest's social RP was born out of the momentum of its conflict RP.... you can't really take the fight out of the Horde, as it were, Forsaken included. If there is one thing the dysfunctional collection of Horde races do have in common, its their fighter's spirit. They go full tooth and nail to survive and will take any means required to do so, and I find that admirable.

So, what perhaps is required then is a means to better streamline the conflict with the social. Just as orcs need boasts of glory and honor to discuss over a beer at the campfire, so to do Forsaken need a venue to connect them socially and give them something to discuss and relate with. Mmm.

The second problem is its exclusivity.

This, I think, is a much larger issue that needs addressing. -NO- race should exist in a bubble, but this is a problem that frequently affects Horde as well as Alliance RP (though Alliance RP to a lesser extent). As you said, Cataclysm has the main Horde forces lending support in ways that was never done before. Moreso, I would LOVE to see more interaction with the core Horde and Forsaken regarding their occupation of Undercity and the heightened tensions the Lordaeron battlefield has to offer.

And of course, Blood Elves and Forsaken have always gotten along well, having bonds forged in fire as victims of the Scourge and a common respected hero in Sylvanas.

I suppose my point here is that Forsaken Military doesn't have the same freedom it had in WotlK. Having evn just a neutral attitude towards the living of Lordaeron could be seen as sympathizing with the enemy. But Blizz's has given such Forsaken no place to go, except maybe the Argents, but I haven't even seen a single bit of lore talking about Forsaken who disagreed with Sylvanas's recent actions and actually done anything about it.
(if you have evidence to the contrary, I would be genuinely happy to see it)

While I can't list too many NPCs who meet this criteria exactly off the top of my head (there are a handful of Argent NPCs but none of them too noteworthy save for the one Grakor listed), the starting zone quest lore does state that Forsaken awakened by the Val'kyr are free to go their own path. Lilian Voss runs back to her Scarlet father only to go berserk and kill him when he rejects her, and Marshal Redpath likely would've been spared if he weren't plotted an armed insurrection in the heart of Forsaken homeland. I still think the freedom to be what you want to be is extant with Forsaken, but I do agree there's likely more social stigma.

That said, there's never been too many options for outliers of any race to be fair. Its either go Argent, go Goblin, or go Independent.

Or, you know, for the newly rezzed Forsaken to not just go "screw you guys, you killed me and my family. I'm siding with the Alliance."

As much as this would provide fantastic story potential, I'm sure most Alliance citizens would have the Forsaken burnt at the stake for going near them :B The prejudice goes both ways! (But the drama of a Forsaken who can't fit in on either side of the fence is delicious...)

[Reigen]

So I now ask this: what sort of RP can be provided that can accomodate for outlier Forsaken characters?

I had hoped to encounter RP where Forsaken were coming to an understanding of themselves. Still scared over all they had become and all that had happened, on top of the missing part of their memories for those who do not recall the horrors they committed under Arthas' control. I wanted to see support for those finally able to understand what they did and that they could never see their living loved ones again, visit them on their birthdays, be there to see the family grow. I suppose I wanted to see RP that outlined the forsaken as still human in mind though not body.

Even though we are in cata, we still have the opportunity for that sort of RP via Forsaken who have hidden themselves away from the world or from new forsaken as demonstrated by Lillian Voss. There are still forsaken who are scared, unsure and in a great deal amount of pain from what they lost and what they are now, and that's something I'd like to see explored.

The basic vague ideas always apply: adventurer, wanderer, that sort of thing, but what can we do to include non-standard Forsaken into the standard Forsaken image without pushing them away?

This seems painfully simple to me, yet it's not embraced as such at all. When a confused/scared/unsure forsaken comes in to a group of established/fanatics, they're more often than not shoved away by the opposing group for not having stable footing. It really broke the whole 'all forsaken are family' deal so many try to tell me about when they can just ignore others who need help.

Maybe the standard forsaken find the non-standard and try to help them overcome all their fears and painful memories. Maybe they try to mold them into a standard forsaken over time. Just shutting the non-standards out or getting frustrated when they don't instantly become 'FOR SLYVANNAS' after one or two sessions doesn't help it at all, and that's what I experienced.

This was in fact one of my goals with the Seminars events and the Embrace of Shadows guild. Clearly, I missed my mark, so I ask you: How could I (and the community as a whole) improve upon this shortcoming?

From what I recall of the Seminar I attended, it really ended up into a 'we're good and everyone else is bad' type deal. 'SHADOW GOOD, LIGHT BAD'. To a new forsaken, or one who hasn't yet come to terms with what they are, this is not inclusive for them. It's terrifying. It's 'I still think the light is good and that the humans might still take me in, but if I try to explain that, I'll be killed'.

I think they need to focus more on what the shadow can do to replace the light that now sees them as unnatural. What can the forsaken people do to fill this gap and become a strong family with each other, despite the differences and how the shadow can guide those still unused to their new bodies and lives. That's the sort of stuff I was hoping to see from the session, as I did want to get my forsaken involved but...that's not what was delivered.