DKs, Character Classes, and Minions

[Grakor456]

I was actually asked this question in a PM, but I'm going to answer it publicly because it's not the first time I've seen it asked or mentioned. Someone wanted to know if, for example, someone could take the Death Knight class and turn it into a different concept, like a Necromancer or a Frost Battlemage.

I actually had to think about this one for a while, because it's not easy to answer. After a while though, I came up with something I'm comfortable with as far as an answer goes.

If you're going to make your own take on a character's class, it needs to work within the scope of the class you have chosen. For example, if you roll a Mage, you could call yourself an "Enchanter" or "Sorcerer" or any number of Mage-related professions, because they are all connected and simply minor variations of each other. The leap of logic from, say, a Death Knight to a "Frost Battlemage", however, is much larger. Death Knights in particular I'm tempted to say this shouldn't happen much, if any at all, because DKs are by their nature already special enough that we don't need people playing a DK but saying they're something else! However, I'll flat-out state this and make it a rule regardless of special applications and whatever we GMs can be talked into: if your character is a DK, then he/she MUST be either undead or in that quasi-dead limbo state that the rest of the DKs are in. The glowing blue eyes and evil voice aren't going to go away just because you call yourself a Dark Knight, Frost Battlemage, or whatever else.

Keep in mind that all requests for these sorts of things (beyond minor variations, like Enchanter vs. Mage) are Special requests, and you should run your idea past a GM first.

The other topic, seemingly unrelated, is the concept of character "minions" for DKs and Warlocks. Something I thought about, and while I haven't seen it directly discussed, I have heard people (even some of my fellow GMs) discuss the idea. There are three such concepts that, to me, make the most sense:

A Warlock's Succubus.
A Warlock's Felguard.
A Death Knight's Ghoul.

These should be fairly obvious. Not only are Succubi and Felguards the most humanoid of the demons a Warlock can summon, they are also the two that have been proven to have the ability to disguise themselves as other races. Similarly, ghouls are undead that aren't TOO different from other strands, and while there are physical differences you can use your imagination, particularly in the case of non-human ghouls.

Now, are these allowed? I'm going to say that these are another use of a "Special" profile, and again should be passed through a GM first. I do like the concepts, but playing a demon or a ghoul is very different from playing a character who has complete control over his/her own actions, which bound demons and ghouls do not.

Comments? Concerns? Questions? Post below.

[Vrahn]

I'm not so sure about a Death Knight's ghoul being playable. The ghoul is completely and utterly under the domination of the Death Knight. It has no free will, and it serves its master. However, you could mess with server lore if you want that to be a possibility. Also, a ghoul would only be available for an Unholy Death Knight, as the rest of the ghouls crumble after a few minutes.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[Grakor456]

There's some implication (and I'd have to dig for it) that ghouls have at least SOME form of intelligence, whereas skeletons and zombies are more of the mindless undead type. So long as they can reasonably think, I don't see too much difference between playing a ghoul and playing a bound demon.

[Vrahn]

Well, you see as I understand it a demon is completely intelligent. They can think and act on their own. They are merely forced into acting on the Warlock's commands. A ghoul is literally being puppeted around by the Death Knight. It has no soul, and if left on its own would either crumble or simply revert to primal instincts.

[Nostra]

Well, if you check around the Death Knight holdings there´s several skeletal, ghoul and geist undead NPCs that seem rather intelligent. I mean, even abominations can have some intelligence.

[Brutalskars]

To play a real free willed ghoul you would have to be risen. Any undead considered Risen are supioror to undead like them and can think for themselves. Every so often though the weaker undead can keep sentience, but it is rare.

[Vrahn]

Oh, no, I agree skeletons, ghouls, abominations, etc. Can be intelligent. I'm just not entirely sure if the ones Death Knights specifically raise as companions are intelligent. It'd be -really- interesting to see someone try and play an abomination. XD

[waffenbaum]

Hypothetically, can Death Knights be in the service of Sylvanas and the Forsaken? Technically not being the pawns of the Scourge and the Lich King anymore, yet still dead and universally loathed by most other races they are in pretty much the same boat as the Forsaken, or so I'd think. I know they appear selfish and destructive and whatnot, and can go on both sides of the proverbial fence that separates horde from alliance. But the horde ones, would they have a place in the Dark Lady's army?

[Harmonic]

I'll admit; I've talked frequently about playing a Ghoul to a Deathknight.

The reason I want to play one, is -because- of the stipulation that comes with being a ghoul. A ghoul, much like pets, is a creature designated to doing the dirty work for his master.

A Ghoul, in my opinion, would be just as despised as his master. Hell, even his master might despise him.

Fact of the matter is, to play a ghoul, you'd have to give into the concept that you are not the one dictating your actions. You are a servant, raised to do the bidding of a master.

To Waffenbaum:

In my opinion, a Deathknight can serve whatever order he wishes. HOWEVER, they still would have loyalty to the Ebon Blade, and he would be monitored carefully.

The factions tolerate them, and actually carry an Alliance. This doesn't mean they trust them, however.

In the case of the Forsaken, they'd probably be one of the more understanding races.

[Grakor456]

Well, you see as I understand it a demon is completely intelligent. They can think and act on their own. They are merely forced into acting on the Warlock's commands. A ghoul is literally being puppeted around by the Death Knight. It has no soul, and if left on its own would either crumble or simply revert to primal instincts.

There's nothing suggesting a Ghoul doesn't have a soul. In fact, the process of Necromancy in and of itself puts the soul BACK into the body, even for unintelligent undead. The only real difference I can see is that the ghoul is a magical creation, while the demon existed in the first place before some twit pulled him out of the nether and enslaved him.

[Vrahn]

Alrighty, for the sake of amusing RP I will agree! :P

[waffenbaum]

I just deleted what I wrote here, I came to a realization. Why not let Death Knights *be* Necromancers? Then Forsaken players willing to act as servants for the Necromancer can play that role by his side. As zombies, ghouls or whatever. I think that the Death Knight talents are all so close to that of what would be an actual in-game Necromancer that it might just work! (The only "rule" to it would be that they should wear only cloth, leather, or the beginners robe in order to seem like casters, but I'm sure people could cope with that)

That way, a more human-looking undead is created, one who is formally known as a a Necromancer, rather than a Death Knight. This would also explain why lots of different races can be Necromancers, they just become sort of.. dead, when they take that class. And people who are willing to offer a character space can then make a forsaken and act as a zombie guard (warrior) or magus (mage) or whatever the Necromancer wants to summon. How does that sound?

The Necromancers would still be loathed and feared, but perhaps more accepted than Death Knights in terms of lore. I mean, the bane of all life now walking around freely from one day to the next? Anyhow, keep in mind this is just a silly suggestions. But I, personally, would not object to being the zombie of a Necromancer.

[Nostra]

Then the question arises, are a necromancer´s "pets" intelligent? They seem to focus more on the quantity of their creations rather than the quality (though I´m sure there are necromancers that care for both).

Oh, and just as a smale note, as for now necromancer is a prestige title and only GMs and heroes can apply for that in the special character profile section.

[waffenbaum]

Indeed Nostra, I read that. And actually playing one should probably be left for someone who would do the role justice. I suggest though, that Necromancer would be a very interesting and fitting class for the Death Knights, seeing as actual death knights has little business being available as player characters. (Or, that is my opinion at least) - From a personal point of view, I've never liked Blizzards decision of making Death Knights a playable class. They're supposed to be one of the most evil things in the entire game, and all-too powerful to walk among normal characters as well.

Maybe people would formally agree to call a Death Knight a Necromancer? (unless of course someone plays an -actual- death knight, but those would likely be even rarer than Necromancers)

And on the subject of Necromancer servants, I think you could say that the stronger the Necromancer, the more intelligent his servant? A beginner in the dark arts would likely not be able to summon much other than a gibbering ghoul, but after a couple of seasons with intense study and training, he could very well summon a low-to-average intelligence undead minion. Doesn't that sound about right?

[Nostra]

I digress!

Some death knights, like the four horsemen, baron Rivendare and Arthas are really powerful, but they are another kind of death knigths than the playable kind.

These playable death knights are actually killed (as opposed to giving their souls up for/to a runeblade) and then raised to become death knights. These new death knights seems to, from what I´ve understood from my ventures into Retail quests and reading obscure posts from various sites, be more of favoured champions, an elite troup of warriors with the aid of runes and minor necromantic magic. They are not at the same level as one of the"second" generation DKs like Arthas and his ilk, this also explains why we find death knights from all races.

Some posts that I´ve read and that helped in convincing me that the new death knigths aren´t that bad can be found here: DK posts