Conquest of the Horde

Und voila. Nothing was ever posted. What is this then? Good question. It is something, perhaps also nothing.

Just a note that the previous two posts where deleted by yours truly. *Tips hat*

Well I mean grakor's talk was something relevant to coth because it did come up before. Someone thought what was being posted was inappropriate and objectifying and expressed concerns about sexism. I think Grakor's trying to elaborate because there were things talked about behind the scenes that players didn't know about or understand, like why was there a problem with this or that. I guess now we're just trying to figure out what's appropriate and what's not. Some of it's obvious, some of it's not.

(01-13-2012, 04:17 AM)Krent Wrote: [ -> ]The issues raised here speak onto a larger topic of free speech...

I hate to interject and ruin what is truthfully an excellent (and non-Jammy) post from Krent, but I'd like the remind people that free speech isn't an issue on a private community like Conquest of the Horde. You cannot say or post whatever you want and expect to be able to hide behind the veil of freedom on speech.

When you sign onto a community (or service), you agree to certain rules. Many times, this stipulates what kind of content is appropriate and what kind is not. While it appears that the overseeing staff is giving us an opportunity to help determine what those standards are, please don't misinterpret that as free speech. We need to abide to those rules.

The same issue pops up a lot on the official Warcraft forums and even in-game, where people argue that they have the right to say and do whatever they want due to free speech. No, they do not -- and Blizzard will gladly boot their asses from the server if it becomes an issue.

(01-13-2012, 05:16 AM)Esthrunil Wrote: [ -> ]Common sense isn't common, anymore.

Common sense is so rare that it's a superpower. Also, obligatory TVTropes/Deadpool reference.

(01-13-2012, 06:00 AM)Saiyuu Wrote: [ -> ]I don't really see much where this talk is heading, especially when the artists currently posting in the community are abiding to those rules and not posting anything offensive. There's a nude picture here and there, but most what I've seen of them are artistic and rather innocent nudity.

Saiyuu, from what I can understand, this is currently being discussed because someone(s) approached the staff with concerns. Grakor's public response does two things:

• It clearly demonstrates that, yes, the staff is listening to people's concerns.
  
• It gives us an opportunity to provide our input into what direction we'd like to see in regards to those standards.

Do the staff need to comply with our suggestions? Oh, goodness, no, but I for one am pleased to know that they're feeling out the community rather than applying some sort of blanket ruleset.

(01-13-2012, 06:58 AM)Piroska Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-13-2012, 04:17 AM)Krent Wrote: [ -> ]The issues raised here speak onto a larger topic of free speech...

I hate to interject and ruin what is truthfully an excellent (and non-Jammy) post from Krent, but I'd like the remind people that free speech isn't an issue on a private community like Conquest of the Horde. You cannot say or post whatever you want and expect to be able to hide behind the veil of freedom on speech.

When you sign onto a community (or service), you agree to certain rules. Many times, this stipulates what kind of content is appropriate and what kind is not. While it appears that the overseeing staff is giving us an opportunity to help determine what those standards are, please don't misinterpret that as free speech. We need to abide to those rules.

The same issue pops up a lot on the official Warcraft forums and even in-game, where people argue that they have the right to say and do whatever they want due to free speech. No, they do not -- and Blizzard will gladly boot their asses from the server if it becomes an issue.

(01-13-2012, 05:16 AM)Esthrunil Wrote: [ -> ]Common sense isn't common, anymore.

Common sense is so rare that it's a superpower. Also, obligatory TVTropes/Deadpool reference.

(01-13-2012, 06:00 AM)Saiyuu Wrote: [ -> ]I don't really see much where this talk is heading, especially when the artists currently posting in the community are abiding to those rules and not posting anything offensive. There's a nude picture here and there, but most what I've seen of them are artistic and rather innocent nudity.

Saiyuu, from what I can understand, this is currently being discussed because someone(s) approached the staff with concerns. Grakor's public response does two things:

• It clearly demonstrates that, yes, the staff is listening to people's concerns.
  
• It gives us an opportunity to provide our input into what direction we'd like to see in regards to those standards.

Do the staff need to comply with our suggestions? Oh, goodness, no, but I for one am pleased to know that they're feeling out the community rather than applying some sort of blanket ruleset.

Yes but with so many different opinions on the matter, it's hard to decide what to do and what to not do based on that alone. And as the one responsible (I believe it was my fault) for said complaints to the team about art, I think it's more of senseless bickering and disagreement with one's art and style, rather than a real concern about community. Still, that is better kept out there, since this thread is working like a train with butter tracks.

Personally I think eight pages of arguing and griping constitutes something of an issue in the community.

(01-13-2012, 07:18 AM)Rigley Wrote: [ -> ]Personally I think eight pages of arguing and griping constitutes something of an issue in the community.

It indeed is an issue, since there are so many different opinions clustered together and no one let go and admits when the other side is arguing with something that makes sense (valid for all sides).

I think if it was just only a matter of not liking an art style or preference it wouldn't have been as big of an issue as what it was.

The fact that this has created such a discussion, Saiyuu, indicates that the scope of the issue extends far beyond your images. And, honestly, regardless of what exactly prompted this, it's a good incentive to set guidelines in order to avoid further complication in the future.

Which doesn't mean that I'm attempting to belittle how you may feel responsible for the discussion. Instead, it's a catalyst that we probably needed so that the standards can finally and clearly be established.

(01-13-2012, 07:10 AM)Saiyuu Wrote: [ -> ]Yes but with so many different opinions on the matter, it's hard to decide what to do and what to not do based on that alone.

Regardless of how differing the opinions are and how difficult it will be to come to a consensus (and I'm not certain that that is even possible), something needs to be established. This has been an issue in the past and having clearly defined guidelines will help people know what they can and cannot post on the forums.

I tend to be fairly open when it comes to posting policies, but in this situation I'm leaning to a more stringent ruleset. The definition of what is socially acceptable varies so greatly that it's hard to come to any conclusion that will make people happy; by being more strict, it pushes the vast majority of the issue aside so that we can focus more on roleplay and the like -- which, I think, is the primary impetus for the site.

Art and stories can be posted on sites other than Conquest of the Horde. Nothing should prevent people from sharing those sites with friends and interested peoples (in other words, not publicly). I know that there are a number of writings that I would never consider sharing openly on these forums due to the nature of their contents. However, that inability shouldn't -- and doesn't -- prevent me from continuing to write them.

It's interesting...
I haven't seen anyone mention this other double standard- A lot of times here in the United States , depictions of nudity and sensuality are handled with kid's gloves (or an eraser), but ultra-violence is more quietly accepted in media. Wheras in other countries, like Canada and countries in Europe, it's certain levels of violence that seem to be more of a bigger concern in media.
Personally, as much as I love violence, I find it a bigger issue than nudity/sexuality that's depicted in a healthy manner. Thoughts?

Also, what about style? I know some people said "this isn't an issue about people's styles," but I know people can get caustic subconsciously towards certain styles (manga-kei, for example). I've seen it too many times where the same thing depicted either in realism or a comic art style and be "alright...sorta," but the same thing in manga gets a stronger reaction.

How did this turn into an eight page debate rather than an "Okay, cool, Grakor -- thanks for the head's up"?

(01-13-2012, 08:06 AM)TwilightDisciple Wrote: [ -> ]It's interesting...
I haven't seen anyone mention this other double standard- A lot of times here in the United States , depictions of nudity and sensuality are handled with kid's gloves (or an eraser), but ultra-violence is more quietly accepted in media. Wheras in other countries, like Canada and countries in Europe, it's certain levels of violence that seem to be more of a bigger concern in media.
Personally, as much as I love violence, I find it a bigger issue than nudity/sexuality that's depicted in a healthy manner. Thoughts?

I think as long as the depiction of violence is at a reasonable level, and is clearly not abuse, it's fine.

Also keep in mind that we are rping in WoW, and video games in general perpetuate violence. People who are here to rp are probably already exposed to a fair level of violence. I think that if we were to set a standard for violence though, at least for artwork, so long as it's not too gorey or disturbing it should be fine. Perhaps too violent imagery should be placed under spoilers with a warning.

(01-13-2012, 08:12 AM)Caravan Wrote: [ -> ]How did this turn into an eight page debate rather than an "Okay, cool, Grakor -- thanks for the head's up"?

(01-12-2012, 03:07 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]I may add to this list later. For now, what does everyone think?

Two reasons:

1. Hot button topic, so everyone has an opinion.
   
2. Grakor specifically requested feedback.

Edit: Specifically in response to Caravan. Wuvvums jumped in before me, haha! Edited to include his post for clarity.

(01-13-2012, 08:12 AM)Caravan Wrote: [ -> ]How did this turn into an eight page debate rather than an "Okay, cool, Grakor -- thanks for the head's up"?

This is CotH. It happens.

(01-13-2012, 08:12 AM)Caravan Wrote: [ -> ]How did this turn into an eight page debate rather than an "Okay, cool, Grakor -- thanks for the head's up"?

Quote:Perhaps too violent imagery should be placed under spoilers with a warning.

Then we return back to the earlier comment (of Grakor.. I believe, not sure) ; If something should be spoilered, should it be posted at all?

Those would head in the same direction as any other image previously mentioned.