Conquest of the Horde

I know I probably said this once...

But I feel like the comments about the length of the thread, the off-topicness of the discussion, where people think the thread is going to head, and "oh, it's just coth" are rather patronizing and derailing. Can we please tone down on it? I also feel like people keep trying to discredit our discussions, even if they are far-reaching. Just please be respectful.

---

"Then we return back to the earlier comment (of Grakor.. I believe, not sure) ; If something should be spoilered, should it be posted at all?

Those would head in the same direction as any other image previously mentioned. "

I do spoiler some things depending on the content and usually if it may be uncomfortable. There's a difference between something being uncomfortable, and something being rule breaking. And, as you said, violence is going to be held to a different standard.

(01-13-2012, 08:06 AM)TwilightDisciple Wrote: [ -> ]Personally, as much as I love violence, I find it a bigger issue than nudity/sexuality that's depicted in a healthy manner. Thoughts?

That's part of the difficulty, however: what's a healthy manner? It ties in further into the whole subjective aspect of this discussion, in which we're trying to come up with some definition of appropriateness in regards to the community as a whole, despite those differing opinions.

That said, based on what I've seen in the past here and in differing mediums, violence tends to be tolerated far more readily than anything sexual in content. Of course, the majority of the communities in which I've participated have been dominated by people from the Unites States where -- as you are absolutely correct -- there is far more tolerance for that than anything remotely sexual.

I think that people tend to have a more visceral reaction to violence when it is overly gratuitious (I know, I know, that's another subjective standard!) or based on the context. There are certain situations that resonate fairly strongly with different aspects of the community and, based on that context, may view that violence as far more abhorrent than the exact same act in a different scenario.

Quote:"Then we return back to the earlier comment (of Grakor.. I believe, not sure) ; If something should be spoilered, should it be posted at all?

Those would head in the same direction as any other image previously mentioned. "

I do spoiler some things depending on the content and usually if it may be uncomfortable. There's a difference between something being uncomfortable, and something being rule breaking. And, as you said, violence is going to be held to a different standard.

So far however, images have not broken the rules (At least, through my entire understanding through out this thread). Hence the entire idea to put down guidelines/rules because some things went over a non-established line (Note: not rule) and made people uncomfortable.

I think, in ways it goes for all art perhaps. Not just sexuality/nudity. If guidelines have to be written on what should and shouldn't be on CotH, put Gore in it as well. (Frankly, I personally do not care how 'sensitive' material is posted as mentioned earlier. I'm mature enough to view it, and deal with it accordingly, but seeing CotH is heading into the direction of guidelines; Let's work with that) Naturally there would be other guidelines for gore, but considering the original post that was mentioning guidelines, may as well cover most if not everything up to avoid any future issues.

TBH, at this point it feels like it's more efficient to just replace all art threads with the post "Here's where you can see my art from now on if you want to. *link*" Because no matter what, -somebody- is going to be offended or think that "this isn't alright" or something like that. It's art. Some of the most known pieces of art feature violence and nudity, I don't see the big deal here. It's not like people are drawing pornography. If you don't approve of something, you can either just ignore it and accept that it's happening or kick up drama about it. Then again, it is coth and given the choice, coth will always go for the latter. Frankly, I think this whole debate is ridiculous.

I think it could be something objective for each though, for example with violence maybe..

It it's just combat it's fine
If it shows a lot of blood or wounds? Spoiler
If there are exposed bones, organs, etc? Perhaps not post at all, or just put in an art gallery offsite.

But I think that could be an example. I think violence will also be depicted less in the art threads because people who draw combat are sort of in a minority. It's difficult to show actions and make it look dynamic so I don't see many artists do it at all to begin with.

To be honest, I'm not sure Grakor did this effectively. No offense to the big guy or anything, but it's pretty obvious this would spark drama since he basically asked for opinions on a highly subjective and debatable case. It'd be more efficient if he'd gone his usual route and said "No, this is how it is. This is what you can post and this is what you -can't- post, end of story." Sometimes, you just have to tell the people to deal with it, no matter how they like it. It'll spark drama, but not as much and not as widely spread in the community. I've always sort of respected Grakor for being able to do that.

Point is, you people won't be able to come to a consensus on what should be allowed to be posted and not, you really wont. Everybody in this thread pretty much thinks differently and everybody wants their way. It will -never- stop.

(01-13-2012, 08:45 AM)Roxas65 Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, I'm not sure Grakor did this effectively. No offense to the big guy or anything, but it's pretty obvious this would spark drama since he basically asked for opinions on a highly subjective and debatable case. It'd be more efficient if he'd gone his usual route and said "No, this is how it is. This is what you can post and this is what you -can't- post, end of story." Sometimes, you just have to tell the people to deal with it, no matter how they like it. It'll spark drama, but not as much and not as widely spread in the community. I've always sort of respected Grakor for being able to do that.

Point is, you people won't be able to come to a consensus on what should be allowed to be posted and not, you really wont. Everybody in this thread pretty much thinks differently and everybody wants their way. It will -never- stop.

....weren't we just complaining the other moon about how Grak needs to foster more discussion and communication and not make instant decisions on things?

No offense to ya, Rox-Box, but reading that sort of thing would make me dfgkladhfgladkfhgsdfc.kxvzhdncg.,sdfhgadrlftkhearty.lwth6jwaETGADLFJGdaflytjer;alejryt;wq4e,mtays.dy,ganhrhy;aelkrjt;wltjawTADFH;ksdafghaegfa a bit, if only because of the fact that this kind of thread is an attempt at gauging people's opinions on a manner before making a decision, which is what we always demand GM's to do.

I understand where yer comin' from, though. Juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust saying.

Wow.

That never crossed my mind but it does make a pretty good point. I can not + like enough.

(01-13-2012, 09:09 AM)Krent Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-13-2012, 08:45 AM)Roxas65 Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, I'm not sure Grakor did this effectively. No offense to the big guy or anything, but it's pretty obvious this would spark drama since he basically asked for opinions on a highly subjective and debatable case. It'd be more efficient if he'd gone his usual route and said "No, this is how it is. This is what you can post and this is what you -can't- post, end of story." Sometimes, you just have to tell the people to deal with it, no matter how they like it. It'll spark drama, but not as much and not as widely spread in the community. I've always sort of respected Grakor for being able to do that.

Point is, you people won't be able to come to a consensus on what should be allowed to be posted and not, you really wont. Everybody in this thread pretty much thinks differently and everybody wants their way. It will -never- stop.

....weren't we just complaining the other moon about how Grak needs to foster more discussion and communication and not make instant decisions on things?

No offense to ya, Rox-Box, but reading that sort of thing would make me dfgkladhfgladkfhgsdfc.kxvzhdncg.,sdfhgadrlftkhearty.lwth6jwaETGADLFJGdaflytjer;alejryt;wq4e,mtays.dy,ganhrhy;aelkrjt;wltjawTADFH;ksdafghaegfa a bit, if only because of the fact that this kind of thread is an attempt at gauging people's opinions on a manner before making a decision, which is what we always demand GM's to do.

I understand where yer comin' from, though. Juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust saying.

Yes, sometimes, it's a good thing to ask for consensus. Especially on big differences for the community such as the prestige system. But sometimes, playing hardball is just more effective, such as small or not so important decisions such as this one. The drama in this thread is pretty redundant since art is so -extremely- subjective and chances are this discussion would never end. It'd probably go on forever, get locked or simply die out without a consensus being reached only to be repeated in another few weeks.

I'm going to say this here, but I think once more it's not entirely about the art. There are some things that go on that we aren't seeing, but it's not relevant to this thread.

I do think though that some of the things are reactionary, mainly the cartoon nude. Some people are accepting of it or just ignored it until the big breast art was addressed, then the mindset came "well if this kind of stuff isn't allowed then why is this okay?"

I don't want to make it personal or get into something personal but this just stems beyond taste and preference. I think part of the point of the post was more to say what crosses the line and what doesn't, so that we can point to that standard instead of heckle other artists for being "just as bad."

(01-13-2012, 08:31 AM)Roxas65 Wrote: [ -> ]It's not like people are drawing pornography.

That's the problem...some folks are declaring that pornography IS being drawn here.

(01-13-2012, 08:45 AM)Roxas65 Wrote: [ -> ]To be honest, I'm not sure Grakor did this effectively. No offense to the big guy or anything, but it's pretty obvious this would spark drama since he basically asked for opinions on a highly subjective and debatable case. It'd be more efficient if he'd gone his usual route and said "No, this is how it is. This is what you can post and this is what you -can't- post, end of story." Sometimes, you just have to tell the people to deal with it, no matter how they like it. It'll spark drama, but not as much and not as widely spread in the community. I've always sort of respected Grakor for being able to do that.

You know, I just can't win no matter what I do.

I always try to do what I think is best for the community and CotH as a whole. I sometimes make unpopular decisions to that end, and I've always tried to make solid decisions to end arguments. It's part of what people hated me for, because I'd do exactly what you said here.

But then folks would tell me "GRAKOR, STOP BEING A MASSIVE PRICK AND LET OTHER FOLKS HAVE A SAY." I go "Oh...okay." So I try to be nice...I see a topic that concerns server policy, and I open up a discussion thread to try to get opinions on it. I try to word everything nicely and politely, I try to post clear examples of what I'm trying to do in order to try to get everyone on-topic, and I figure that if drama will occur, at least it will be safely contained in my blog instead of more visible areas of the forums.

Now I read this.

Krent Wrote:dfgkladhfgladkfhgsdfc.kxvzhdncg.,sdfhgadrlftkhearty.lwth6jwaETGADLFJGdaflytjer;a​lejryt;wq4e,mtays.dy,ganhrhy;aelkrjt;wltjawTADFH;ksdafghaegfa

Fair enough. but I stand by the drama in this thread being overly redundant.

I've tried to not involve myself so much in coth's drama since I came back, but sometimes it's hard. Loxxy is usually the one who has to listen to my opinions over MSN. What I mean to say by this is that I, again, has caught myself in the act of involving myself with coth drama, which I'm trying not to, so I'll just remove myself from this thread, despite still having things to say, to save my sanity. I'm going to follow Rensin's advice and hug a snowman.

I don't think I offended somebody, but you can never say for sure on here, so I apologize if I offended anybody.

Carry on.


Edit for Grakor's post: This is the second time I do this, I did it and then pushed the wrong button and it went away. FML. Oh well, here goes a second time.

I know you can't win, Grakor. You're an authority and people will always hate on authority no matter what they choose to do and it's always been the fact that you know this but still do it that has made me respect you over the years. Knowing -exactly- how to handle a community problem so nobody hates it is not just hard, it's inhumane. To be honest, I couldn't handle declaring some of the policies that you have declared, on your own or from a consensus among GMs, and then taken all the hate for it like you've done numerous times. Contrary to popular belief, and petition I still think exists, you are actually quite good at what you do.

I'm with Kent on this one. I feel that transparency between the staff and community is always better than making a blanket decision, even if it's only to spark a debate, garner feedback, and see if there's a general direction that the community would prefer the staff take.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a discussion. There is nothing inherently wrong with a debate. There is nothing inherently wrong in having an opinion and sharing it with others in a sensible manner. A lot of roleplaying deals with being able to effectively communicate with others, especially since a lot of the issues in which we explore can be considered contentious. If we cannot have a reasonable discussion within the community, then how can we even manage to roleplay?

We shouldn't avoid the simple act of talking. That strikes me as very silly.

You (and that's the general 'you', not you specifically, Roxas) cannot have it both ways. You can't berate the staff for the deplorable act of making a decision behind closed doors and then point to a situation and say that it should have been handled in exactly that way. It's contradictory and most likely confusing to the staff as well. How are they to know what situation warrants transparency and which shouldn't?

Welcome that the staff is willing to share information with us. Welcome that they're letting share our opinions so that we can hopefully provide some direction in policies that may be placed on Conquest of the Horde. Welcome that we're not finding out about something after the fact when all we're able to do is complain about how we never originally had a say at all.

I, for one, welcome our new transparent overlords.

My edit appeared to not end up so quick after all.

Anyways, I'm not denying that you and Krent have some points Piroska, but usually when debate about something at least somewhat important, it usually goes downhill pretty fast. Drama, disrespect etc etc. It's just all so. . .Redundant. And I can't help but feel that this particular topic (not the forum topic itself, but the debate it sparked) was just kind of redundant.

My dad has a very simple saying that goes "Why make it hard for yourself?" Coth is -very- good at doing exactly that.


EDIT: and again I involve myself again without even realizing it. FML. Way to make it hard for myself.

(01-13-2012, 09:52 AM)Roxas65 Wrote: [ -> ]My dad has a very simple saying that goes "Why make it hard for yourself?" Coth is -very- good at doing exactly that.

It's hard either way we go. It's either we're totalitarian and don't allow opinion in our decisions, or we're baiting for drama.

I'll be completely honest in saying that I would prefer the former over the latter, because being a GM has largely made me lose faith that conversations like this could be carried out without people coming to blows. Then again on that same notion, if we had gone that route it would only have been a matter of time before people began to clammor about the decision in the same thread.

...Eh. I guess I just hate these threads in general, then. 'Cause you can't please everybody, and nobody wants to be the crowd that takes the blow for the team. Granted, it's not as cut and dry on issues like this one, and I realize that. I guess what I'm trying to say is

Krent Wrote:dfgkladhfgladkfhgsdfc.kxvzhdncg.,sdfhgadrlftkhearty.lwth6jwaETGADLFJGdaflytjer;a​​lejryt;wq4e,mtays.dy,ganhrhy;aelkrjt;wltjawTADFH;ksdafghaegfa