On Death Knights

[Bovel]

Something off topic but still relevant to the discussion; Are all death knights on CotH heroes before death?
(Cause if then they are the only ones allowed to be heroes to start with. On Defias Brotherhood it was set down as an agreement that none of the DKs there would be RPed as the kind of heroes the quests depict.)


My oppinion on the topic is that death knights would want or at least "feel" some sort of obligation towards the war against the Scourge and that they maybe, partially want to take part in it. But at the same time alot of whatever is still "alive" within would want them to go back to their previous routines*. A death knight trying to live would be logical as long as there is some longing or feeling of obligation towards the rest of the Ebon Bladers in Northrend.

*Yes, _ROUTINES_ and not a new attempt at a new life. They are dead and frozen in life, so to speak and they would try to back to what they know at first and really try hard and fail even harder before even thinking about something new. So newly free'd death knight would -not- run to Ratchet and carouse away, unless that is what he or she did in his previous everyday life.

[Huurron]

I feel Death Knights definitely were heroes of some sort. One way or another, they were definitely above average. I'm saying this because if they were just another foot soldier why would they become a Death Knight, which is quite a powerful being, instead of just another undead added to the masses?

With that being said, if the DK character wanted to return to something from their former life, it would most likely still be associated with fighting Scourge. They were killed by Scourge after all. That coupled with the fact that they are from a part of the Ebon Blade would mean they are definitely out actively fighting Scourge. If you want an undead character that's not doing something against the Scourge, I suggest picking a Forsaken and have a story on why he's not pushing against the Lich King when a fairly nice amount of his faction is.

Other than the above, the rest of my feelings are basically covered by dannyhero.

[Mortiphobia]

I can't believe this still hasn't been decided? A Death Knight, is an unholy, unfeeling beings, who was betrayed by the very same man who tortured, and brought them back from a restful after life or whatever. It doesn't make any sense to me, why you would want to go back to a normal life? You can't feel, you can't eat, you don't look at men and women the same way, you don't have feelings of love and joy.

I would very much like to know where you're pulling this from. Who says Death Knights are unable to feel emotions? To quote my good friend Darion:

"Harness your hate; make it useful."

Hate is an emotion. The fact that Death Knights want revenge at all shows they are driven by some kind of emotion. They aren't apathetic beings. And to say they can only feel hate and similar emotions, to me, seems like grasping at straws. The Forsaken feel emotion; the only difference between the two forces is that one died from the Plague and was not risen by necromancy. Both, however, regained their free-will in a similar fashion. Why exactly do you feel Death Knights are so different?

Rensin brings up a good point. The playerbase flocks to Cartel cities; if I want to find RP on a character I am truly passionate about, I have to go there. To restrict a character from such a place is silly, especially when it's entirely possible to come up with a tasteful reason for being there. Riven (my DK) is his own person, has his own free-will. He is prepared to head to Northrend to fight the Scourge, but not before he is ready. Is it so far-fetched that he'd be a little sick of battle at this point? The atrocites he committed under the Lich King's icy grip are still fresh in his mind. Perhaps he wants to find a little peace, first. And to make it clear, he is, in fact, wearing civilian clothing. He's not walking around with a "Hey, I'm a Death Knight" sign strapped to his back.

Until the entirety of this server, those affiliated with the Horde or Alliance, get their arses to the frozen wastes to protect life on Azeroth from the Scourge, Death Knights should not be treated any differently. Until then, my Death Knight will go where he pleases and take care of the things he feels need to be done.

[Harmonic]

Sounds like you guys are getting a lot of stuff mixed up. They have emotions, they can be alive, and they don't -have- to fight in Northrend, jeeze. If they had to do that, why did Blizz make them level 55 and not automatically seventy? BECAUSE, they are fighting in places -other- than Northrend. Don't get so caught up in this mythos that's been created by players here.

[Mortiphobia]

Sounds like you guys are getting a lot of stuff mixed up. They have emotions, they can be alive, and they don't -have- to fight in Northrend, jeeze. If they had to do that, why did Blizz make them level 55 and not automatically seventy? BECAUSE, they are fighting in places -other- than Northrend. Don't get so caught up in this mythos that's been created by players here.

If anything, I picture Death Knights having stronger emotions than most, in the sense that they've had a lot of shite happen to them. Not only do they have to deal with the atrocities they committed, but they also have to face the persecution from some of their fellow Alliance (or Horde). They did not ask for this. It's not their fault they got raised by the Lich King. They were fighting for a noble cause: to destroy the Scourge, so that their friends, family, etc. may be free. And while I'm sure many Death Knights will want to continue that, I'm sure some are very haunted by it all.

Off topic- Rensin, I'm in love with your avatars.

[Harmonic]

Sounds like you guys are getting a lot of stuff mixed up. They have emotions, they can be alive, and they don't -have- to fight in Northrend, jeeze. If they had to do that, why did Blizz make them level 55 and not automatically seventy? BECAUSE, they are fighting in places -other- than Northrend. Don't get so caught up in this mythos that's been created by players here.

If anything, I picture Death Knights having stronger emotions than most, in the sense that they've had a lot of shite happen to them. Not only do they have to deal with the atrocities they committed, but they also have to face the persecution from some of their fellow Alliance (or Horde). They did not ask for this. It's not their fault they got raised by the Lich King. They were fighting for a noble cause: to destroy the Scourge, so that their friends, family, etc. may be free. And while I'm sure many Death Knights will want to continue that, I'm sure some are very haunted by it all.

Off topic- Rensin, I'm in love with your avatars.

And I've got even more to come, heh.


But yes, that's something that I've been trying to convey to people... if you play the DK starter quests, something that you can't do here, you'd see all this stuff that we are talking about. I mean, they even ask you to help clear a room littered with baddies because they are so disorganized. They are pretty rag-tag, actually.

[Mortiphobia]

And I've got even more to come, heh.


But yes, that's something that I've been trying to convey to people... if you play the DK starter quests, something that you can't do here, you'd see all this stuff that we are talking about. I mean, they even ask you to help clear a room littered with baddies because they are so disorganized. They are pretty rag-tag, actually.

The starting quests are actually something I forgot to touch on in my post. For one, Thassarian asks the player to go rescue Koltira from the Scarlets despite the other's (I forget his name) protests. He says that we are all brothers in death. That right there shows Death Knights feel compassion, and that was before they broke from the Lich King.

Another quest has the player go into a building to finish off the captured Argent Dawn memebers. One of them, apparently, recognizes you from life, and tries to get you to remember. The quest was designed to pull at the character's heart-strings, to get the character to remember who he/she once was. It's only after a Death Knight general yells at you, asking what's taking so long, and after your former friend tells you to end his/her life, that your character kills the person.

There may be more, but those two quests show pretty clearly that Death Knights are sentient and can, in fact, feel emotions beyond hatred.

[Nostra]

I'm in no way saying death knights can't feel emotions, or that they are limited to hatred. Nor am I saying you can't RP elsewhere than Northrend.

What I am saying is that the Ebon Blade, when looking at quests and how they are organized as knightly order appear very much like a organization focused on military matters. All of the death knigths are supposed to be part of the order due to the lore that we see at the end of the Battle for Light's Hope, of course people can roleplay as their character breaking off if they wish. People can roleplay their character as wanting a normal life. There's nothing wrong with it, but people should not expect others to ICly just accept them.

Why? For pretty much the same reason we don't expect blood elves to be all cozy with humans or nigth elves, there's a deep conflict between them. Death knigths were at first commanders of the Dark Horde, casting spells of shadow, fel and necromancy against the Alliance in service of the Burning Legion. Later death knights were traitors of the Alliance, once mighty paladins that fell to the lure of undeath and power promised by Ner'zhul, leading armies through Lordaeron ravaging and slaughtering anything still alive after the the plague and raising their victims in unholy undeath. The latest "breed" have been seen even more than their older brethren, they are more numerous and aren't limited to "officer" positions within the Scouge but can be seen in the armies with runeblades held high as they charge in the frontlines.

I hope that explained more why I don't think anyone can play a death knight in any "normal" setting without expecting some kind negative (as in, spite, hate, fear or similar emotions) response from the other participants in the RP. And just so we don't forget, I still am not saying you can't roleplay your DK in that scenario, just that it won't be the same as roleplaying say, a warrior.

Back to the Ebon Blade saying that it isn't a militaristic organization really confounds me, we see throughout quests that pretty much all NPC death knights are driven with hatred for the Scourge and the Lich King, even the more compassionate ones dedicate themselves to the war without hesitation. We see many statements by one of the more important characters within the organization, Mograine, that seems to imply his own hatred for the Scourge is all that concerns him at the moment, though he does seem to have hope for a better future. Once the Lich King is gone, hehe.

Greetings:

* "We are driven by a single purpose: retribution."
* "For us there is no peace, no rest."
* "All is not lost, not yet."
* "Harness your hate; make it useful."
* "We know much about sacrifice."

Irritated:

* "Dismissed."
* "One more nuisance I must deal with."
* "We Mograines aren't known for our restraint."
* "Patience is a virtue; one I no longer possess."
* "You are expendable."

Farewell:

* "The Knights of the Ebon Blade will not falter."
* "We will see it through, to the bitter end."
* "We must forge our own destiny."
* "A shadow of hope remains."
* "We are eternal. We are unyielding."

And looking at the quest text ending the Battle for Light's Hope it does seem very much like the Ebon Blade is all about killing Scourge whatever it takes, as it is their way to atone for their own sins as well as get revenge on the guy that killed them, defiled their souls and enslaved them to his own will, forcing them to slaugther innocents in the name of death.

There will be no atonement for us, <name>. We are forever damned to walk the earth as monsters. While the Lich King may have loosed his grip upon us, the specters of the past will forever haunt our memories.

We must make amends in the only way we know how: Death...

I ask you now to join me in Acherus as a Knight of the Ebon Blade. Together we will destroy the Lich King and end the Scourge.

And lastly, looking at the response of Varian when the player is sent to offer the Alliance an... alliance it seems to confirm that although death knigths are accepted they aren't well liked.

<Varian stares off into the distance.>

Indeed old friend... Blood and honor.

<Varian affixes his gaze upon you.>

Were it not for this letter from Tirion, you would be a stain upon my floor. Only an endorsement from one of the greatest paladins to ever live could have ensured your survival.

We... We will work together against the Scourge. Against the Lich King!

GLORY TO THE ALLIANCE!

To sum up my own thoughts...

While I don't think it's wrong to roleplay a DK differently from the stereotype presented in the Lore (that is a tortured character haunted by his past and driven by hate for the entity that forced him through hell, doing whatever it takes to defeat the Scourge. Using their own unholy powers against them) to do so and expect people to react as if it is normal would be rather odd. Stereotypes are there for a good reason and even though you don't have to follow it to the letter it is good to keep it in mind while creating the character. Nothing forces DKs to be in Northrend or even be part of the Ebon Blade if they wish to break away, but if it is what people expect when they see those blue eyes or hear that haunting voice.

[Harmonic]

Yes, they are driven by revenge. However, that's also something that you have to do progressivly. Yes, you have to go through the Ebon Blade to do most things, but they are -not- a militaristic group. Do you see them outside of Archerus? Is there a location in Northrend that they have that I don't know about?

I don't think they do. Why? Because like the American Army, they believe in the individual rather than the group. They -guide- them towards these things, they don't force them to do that. Hell, I bet there are more than a few Deathknights that just wish to resume their normal duties rather than going Northrend.

[SpiralLateralus]

I'm going to post basically the entire WoWWiki article http://www.wowpedia.org/Ebon_Blade:

"The Knights of the Ebon Blade (mirroring the Knights of the Silver Hand) are an organization of renegade death knights. Their base is at Acherus: The Ebon Hold in the Eastern Plaguelands. Its primary function is to guide new renegade death knights. Freed from the grasp of the Lich King, his former death knights have regrouped against him under the banner of Highlord Darion Mograine.

The Knights of the Ebon Blade were originally an army of Scourge death knights trained in the halls of Acherus. They were created (or so they were told) for the purposes of destroying both the Scarlet Crusade in their enclave east of Tyr's Hand, and the Argent Dawn at Light's Hope Chapel. In truth, the entire plan was conceived by the Lich King himself not to destroy the Argent Dawn, but rather to use the death knight legion as bait to lure out the Highlord of the resurgent Order of the Silver Hand, Tirion Fordring.

During the Battle for Light's Hope Chapel, where ten thousand Scourge faced off against three hundred defenders of the Light, the corrupted Ashbringer wielded by the death knight commander, Highlord Darion Mograine, refuses to obey its wielder. When Fordring arrives, his powers of the Light prove too great for even ten thousand to oppose, and Mograine orders his death knights to surrender. Fordring scolds Mograine for his foolishness and tells him that Arthas sent him and his death knights on a suicide mission. As they await the paladin's judgment, they witness a vision of Mograine's father, Alexandros, the legendary Ashbringer himself. He told his son that he would one day wield the Ashbringer and use it to mete out justice, but "that day is not today".

The Lich King himself arrives not long afterwards and confirms that he had indeed sent the death knights to their deaths in order to bring Fordring out of hiding. Enraged by this treachery, Mograine attacks, but the Lich King swats him aside in one hit and focuses his attention on Fordring, incapacitating him with a crippling spell and knocking back the Argent soldiers who charged in.

Remembering the words spoken by his father, Mograine throws the corrupted Ashbringer to Fordring, whose powers of the Light succeed in purifying it. With the purified blade in hand, Fordring charges into the Lich King and throws him back. Leaving their battle for another day, the lord of the Scourge flees back to Northrend, warning Tirion that: "When next we meet, it won't be on holy ground, paladin."

After Arthas' departure, Fordring calls for the union of the Argent Dawn and the Order of the Silver Hand into the Argent Crusade, intended to bring the war to Icecrown itself. Mograine pledges himself and his knights to the same cause, naming his new order the Knights of the Ebon Blade. With their free will restored, Mograine and his death knights return to Acherus and capture it, destroying the Scourge remnants within. With their new base secured, Mograine then sends his knights to rejoin their people, sending them to throw themselves at the mercy of either King Varian Wrynn in Stormwind (if their race belonged to the Alliance) or Warchief Thrall in Orgrimmar (if they belonged to the Horde)."

There it is. Highlord Darion Mograine (the actual leader of the Ebon Blade) never said "You have to fight for the Ebon Blade or I will send Death Knights to come and kill you for not following me". He never once implies it (I played the actual Death Knight quests). Therefore, Death Knights who choose not to affiliate themselves with The Ebon Blade should not be restricted at all. Other death knights (in the Ebon Blade guild) can say "I hate you for deciding to not fight in Northrend with us" but that does not give them the authority to arrest/kill other Death Knights.

If this does not clear that up for you people who think DK's should be forced to fight in Northrend, then you are just stubborn.