Shadow in the light... Priests!

[Kenert]

Believing in one doesn't make you hate other. IRL example: If you believe in God, you hate Buddha?

Straw Man, plus do not brign up religion on the server in a possible way to show hatred towards a figure or belief.

If you have to metagame to make your character, then I can already say off the bat this character may not fly.

IRL I would believe in anything that could give me more... ablities. I'd believe in Light if it could heal my wounds, I would believe in Shadow if it could give me power.

I won't MG. I'll put in my history what I found in here, I'm sorry if I accidentally said something wrong.
And I have to do some research OOC, because I can't do it IC. After I've found out how to use it, then I can RP finding a way etc, because else I COULD find a way IC, but then it could be proven wrong like: "ZOMG u can not use dat, i dont likey".

[Jason]

Pletious doesn't mean at the same time. It's just nearly impossible to be adept at using two completely opposite forms of magic. Not to mention that, like Jeff said in more words, if your character uses one then he or she probably hates the other.

Mages use fire and ice, they're opposite enough.
Believing in one doesn't make you hate other. IRL example: If you believe in God, you hate Buddha?

Actually, fire and ice are pretty much one and the same. Both are a result of the Evocation school of magic.

On a relative note, that is a terribly awkward comparison between schools of magic. On a purely factual base, Divine magic (Light magic) is powered by faith. Shadow magic is accessed via the Arcane by tapping into the Shadow Plane. This is all on wowpedia.org.

In that Shadow magic is considered evil in itself, the use of it actually corrupts the caster. Therefore, you couldn't hardly use both Light magic and Shadow magic because Light magic demands you be pure. Morality has next to nothing to do with it, since it's just an idea created by your perception. You could kill hundreds and still use the Light if you thought you were right in doing so. That isn't the problem at all. It's simply the impurity that comes from shadow magic itself.

At least, that's what I've gathered.

[Cressy]

Okay so..

I think you are pushing it a bit too far to do both. Honestly, it was previously stated that you have to believe in their virtues to wield them, something that contradicts one another in itself.

And, I highly doubt any one of us GMs will approve the profile.

[Piroska]

I am one of the people who is confused by this concept that those wielding Light are unable to wield Shadow, and vice versa. I've never ever read this in any of my searches for more lore-based information. Then again, I'm not the comprehensive source of lore, but I like to think that I have a fairly firm grasp on its intricacies.

I think that a lot of the confusion arises from the definition of Shadow magic. Shadow magic is not (not, not, not!) necessarily synonymous with the fel. Remember: fel magic is actually corrupted arcane magic that is typically perverted from demonic sources, including the application of demon blood. The term Shadow, however, can refer to a variety of different types of energy.

The roleplaying guides actually splits Shadow magic into distinct categories:

• Darkness
  
• Negative
  
• Death
  
• Destruction
  
• Chaotic
  
• Evil
  
• Fel

While some of those words have the perception of being evil, they're not necessarily the polar opposite to the Light. Darkness can be drawing power from the night. Death is an eventual conclusion to life and so isn't necessarily evil. We often need to destroy things before we're able to build; think of the effort of cutting down a tree in order to build a house. Without some measure of chaos, we can't survive; there is randomness even within our own bodies. I mean, there's even an element of Shadow in illusion magic, which inherently has no positive or negative twist.

As you can see, these elements of Shadow aren't necessarily evil. Sure, there are fel and evil and negative subcategories, but what is there that says that the energy upon which a priest draws has to be one of those? Shadow is a type of energy available on every plane of existence. Saying Shadow is evil is like saying a gun is evil; both are tools that inherently lack any semblance of good or evil. It's how we apply that energy that dictates what it is.

Now, we now how utilizing the Light works, particularly for paladins. They have two requirements in order for their efforts to work:

1. Paladins must believe that their actions will work, and
   
2. They must believe that they are doing good.

As noted in numerous discussions before, wielding the Light is based on perception and not truth. So, we can look at the Scarlet Crusade as see how their actions could pretty much be considered evil and yet that still have functional paladins and priests within their ranks. How can this happen? The Light-wielders believe that what they're doing is right and good and just; so even as they're killing innocent people because they could possibly be evil, the Scarlets believe that they're doing the right thing.

So, say we apply the same concept and stipulations required of paladins to Light wielding priests (remember, what constitutes a priest in one race and culture is not necessarily the same in others; for example, this argument is moot when applied to trolls). This priest has learned to wield the Light and is inherently good. Say that she has also learned to utilize Shadow energy in the pursuit of her goals, which are also -- by extension -- inherently good. She uses her powers to protect others. Does the Shadow make her evil? Goodness, no!

I think that it would be best to move away from this concept that Light is synonymous with good and Shadow with evil. The Light can -- and frequently has -- been used to harm others. On the other hand, application of the Shadow has also been used to help others, even to heal in the case of the Forsaken.

[Kenert]

Pletious doesn't mean at the same time. It's just nearly impossible to be adept at using two completely opposite forms of magic. Not to mention that, like Jeff said in more words, if your character uses one then he or she probably hates the other.

Mages use fire and ice, they're opposite enough.
Believing in one doesn't make you hate other. IRL example: If you believe in God, you hate Buddha?

Actually, fire and ice are pretty much one and the same. Both are a result of the Evocation school of magic.

On a relative note, that is a terribly awkward comparison between schools of magic. On a purely factual base, Divine magic (Light magic) is powered by faith. Shadow magic is accessed via the Arcane by tapping into the Shadow Plane. This is all on wowpedia.org.

In that Shadow magic is considered evil in itself, the use of it actually corrupts the caster. Therefore, you couldn't hardly use both Light magic and Shadow magic because Light magic demands you be pure. Morality has next to nothing to do with it, since it's just an idea created by your perception. You could kill hundreds and still use the Light if you thought you were right in doing so. That isn't the problem at all. It's simply the impurity that comes from shadow magic itself.

At least, that's what I've gathered.

"Shadow (aka Darkness) is also a corruption of the faith of the Light" straight from wowpedia.org
There's only a small information on shadow faith.

In no way it says that using shadow magic corrupts your mind, just that Shadow is corrupted Light.
Using Light and corrupted Light at the same time should be no problem for some who have dedicated their life to it.(Some Priests)
I'm sorry if I'm rude again: Prove that shadow magic corrupts your mind.

Okay so..

I think you are pushing it a bit too far to do both. Honestly, it was previously stated that you have to believe in their virtues to wield them, something that contradicts one another in itself.

And, I highly doubt any one of us GMs will approve the profile.

I'm sure they won't deny it if I have a good enough reason to use both, and this is what I'm doing right now: Finding a good enough reason.

"The followers of the Holy Light do not worship any gods. Instead, it is a philosophy, training its followers to seek perfection within themselves. It is very much an active practice of virtue rather than a passive worship. Those who follow it closely gain spiritual awareness and guidance, allowing them to lead others. " you can still believe in those virtues and use Shadow magic. I read the virtues and they don't say anything, that you can't use Shadow magic.

@Piroska: At last, someone who gets what I mean and knows how to put it in words.

[Xigo]

Anything is possible unless it can be proven that it cannot be done.

I see no evidence that this cannot be done.

[Kenert]

Anything is possible. >.>

Forest destroying Night Elves? Possible but unlikely
Cuddling Death Knights? Possible, but unlikely
Immortal characters?
Friendship between Night Elves and Forsaken? Possible, but unlikely

Those are just few example that ANYTHING isn't possible I found one thing, those ideas came to me in 5 seconds, so I wrote them and posted. After a little thinking I found how foolish I was.

[Piroska]

On a purely factual base, Divine magic (Light magic) is powered by faith. Shadow magic is accessed via the Arcane by tapping into the Shadow Plane.

No, no, no, no, no.

You've twisted information that you've found on WoWWiki and have incorrectly drawn conclusions. You're confusing a lot of different information. This is incorrect. The end!

The Shadow plane does not exist. Does not. What is known as the Shadow plane is actually a force or energy available on every plane of existence. From WoWWiki's Plane article specifically regarding the Light, Negative, and Shadow planes:

These planes doesn't appear to exist. But their forces are known to flow through Azeroth and the Twisting Nether. These forces are not limited to any single plane; they are instead an integral part of every aspect of the Warcraft universe, woven into every plane. Thus, spells that call upon these energies such as harm, heal and shadow conjuration instead draw upon local sources rather than reaching to another plane.

From the Shadow (magic school) article, we have:

The shadow energy (aka Shadow Plane) is not limited to a single plane; it is instead an integral part of every aspect of the universe, woven into every plane. Thus, spells that call upon this energy, such as shadow conjuration, draw upon local sources rather than reaching to another plane.

Shadow is energy, pure and simple. It has a variety of different subcategories, some of which are inherently evil but this does not mean that all Shadow is evil. Shadow is just a force that can be drawn from and applied to every plane of existence.

[Jason]

The bit on Shadow magic being drawn via Arcane was found in a guide in the CotH forums. Sooo...checking my sources.

[simianthief]

Cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria. And Egon thinks the cockroach population is exploding.

[Piroska]

Oh! Then, unfortunately, that guide is incorrect.

It could have confused this so-called Shadow plane with the Realm of Shadows, which does exist (and has sometimes been incorrectly called the Shadow plane). This is a plane accessible to powerful death knights. It's also where the death knight's deathcharger is "made". I think that a lot of people have adopted that their death knights' powers have been drawn from this plane; I can't say it that is true or not since I can't recall offhand if I've read anything along those lines.

However, we do know that creatures under the control of the Lich King do reside in that plane from a variety of quests.

[Xigo]

Anything is possible. >.>

Forest destroying Night Elves? Possible but unlikely
Cuddling Death Knights? Possible, but unlikely
Immortal characters?
Friendship between Night Elves and Forsaken? Possible, but unlikely

Those are just few example that ANYTHING isn't possible I found one thing, those ideas came to me in 5 seconds, so I wrote them and posted. After a little thinking I found how foolish I was.

Eheh. You have your point.

However, let me expand a bit on what I said. Anything is possible, yes. But if you do something 'unlikely', such as the things you have mentioned, you really need a good grip with the lore, and how to make things fit into the lore. A better grip than one who would do something 'likely'.

Subject A:Tauren who fights on the plains, in the name of the Earthmother? Go for it, it's fairly simple.

Subject B:Tauren who uses mechanical contraptions, works for the Cartel, and hates nature? Go for it, but you better have a good explanation as to -why- this Tauren does these unlikely things. An explanation that makes sense within the context of the lore.

Subject A just needs to know the basic Tauren lore. Subject B needs to know more Tauren lore, Cartel lore, and must have a good grip with how Tauren are roleplayed in the first place.

See what I'm getting at?

[SpiralLateralus]

I just have to jump in here and say that the Scarlet Crusade uses the Holy Light for evil (even though they believe they are doing good). They have massacred innocents of every race.

And yet they still have the ability to use the Holy Light.

World of Warcraft is much like real life in that things are not simply black and white. It brings me great sadness when people approach this game OOCly saying that all forsaken are bloodthirsty monsters, that all blood elves are fel addicted freaks, etc.

There are no absolutes in Warcraft (the Orcs being good guys proves that).

Now, ICly that is a different matter. ICly your character can believe that all Horde races are evil monsters and vice versa.

Shadow and Fel magic are not themselves evil. But they are usually used for evil.

[simianthief]

Shadow and Fel magic are not themselves evil. But they are usually used for evil.

I almost didn't agree with that, until I realized that the Fel energies are coming from someplace, probably someplace not unlike the Well of Eternity, just a different color. It just so happens to be under the control of the demons and thus it's considered evil.

[Seraphim]

Go ahead and play this character. I just hope that there's a concept behind them that isn't limited to 'They use both the Shadow and the Light!' Something about what they believe, or how they grew up, or an inner-conflict besides 'Man, how can I be both awesome AND rad at the same time?!' A story about love that they threw away, or trying to justify why they both hate and admire their mentor, or reconciling the fact that they could have saved someone that they cared about, but didn't.

... Suffice it to say, I think there's too much emphasis here on wanting a character to have super-cool powers, and not enough emphasis on the character itself. Write the profile first. Make up a priest who's interesting without the ability to use both Holy and Shadow magic, and then, if it turns out that it's vital to said character's backstory, PM a GM about your concerns. Maybe you'll find out that you didn't need him to have those sets of abilities after all.

This kind of stuff is on a character-to-character basis. Really, you can do almost anything on CotH, if you have a good reason for it. It should be noted that it looks less cheesy and Mary Sue-ish if you aren't starting with a problematic character concept and then making up a justification for it.

tl;dr: You're going about character creation backwards. A character's history and personality should drive their abilities, not the other way around.