The Tier System: (A prestige system idea, work in progress)

[McKnighter]

But might I ask, why are the GMs so discontent with this proposal? I'm having a hard time finding much wrong with it, sure it isn't perfect but it's extremely well-thought and I actually think highly of it. I think if you guys said some of the reasons that you don't like it, then we can come to a better solution and try to fix it in a way that you do like it! :3

The reason we are not as supportive as one would suspect is because we're already finishing off creating our own system. We're probably about 75% done. Not to say this isn't a bad system. This without a doubt as a lot of thought into it, and if we didn't have anything at all I reckon we'd probably be looking into this one a bit more. But as I've said, we've already gotten damn far ahead in ours and we're not going to be creating even more of a delay with comparing it to someone else's.

Well, then why didn't you tell Brutal this before he got to serious work on his? I know he talked about it at least a few dozen times in vent with GM's around. It just seems like a slap in the face for Brutal to tell him that the GM team have already been working on theirs and will most likely go with that one rather than a player submitted one. :\

[Hawk]

I know you're all eager to get your hands on a new system. And believe me, we just want to get this off our backs as well, but you really all need to just be patient and stop jumping guns. We don't do this for our benefit. Sure, we also share the perks of the system, but this really is all for the playerbase.

This has caused so much hassle, that there were debates of getting rid of the whole system altogether, but then it wouldn't be fair to you guys. So please, just be patient. We're working on it.

Well, then why didn't you tell Brutal this before he got to serious work on his? I know he talked about it at least a few dozen times in vent with GM's around. It just seems like a slap in the face for Brutal to tell him that the GM team have already been working on theirs and will most likely go with that one rather than a player submitted one. :\

He told us he was working on a system. What he didn't do was actually tell us he was going to post it to the public for feedback, which has turned out into such a mess because you guys are just wanting -anything- right now. Believe me, if I could've prevented this, I would have. I've recently had a taste of putting tons of effort into something and then it all goes to waste.

[Aphetoros]

That doesn't really answer my question, though HAwk =/
I mean, what's the harm of sharing some details of our current system?

[Brutalskars]

More of a slap in the face because I was working on something and working with people, even talking to GMs and then I get a backwards in thought post about it taking too long if we do some comparing. Didn't the last system fail because if was put out too early? And I would say the biggest part of this whole 'slap in the face', I feel good that I put it up for people to see now more than ever. Because it seems based off that response I would be told just because you guys were doing your own thing it doesn't matter if I worked or not?

And I did say I was at some point when ready going to put this on the forums. But I guess no one remembers that part.

But... I will not dwell on it. I will continue working on my idea, even if another system goes up. You know a "just in case project". Or a way to eat up some spare time.

[Hawk]

That doesn't really answer my question, though HAwk =/
I mean, what's the harm of sharing some details of our current system?

We might, we might not! We'll just have to wait and see.



Actually, the reasons the previous system failed was:

- People who we didn't want getting new classes, were getting them.
- People were trying to be as epic as possible beyond the stated boundaries. I.E, the Categories.
- People were not putting in decent amounts of effort their storylines. Some were, but not all of them.
- People were abusing the system in other ways.

It actually saddens me to say this, but the main reason the system failed? Too much trust was put into the playerbase. I know, I hate to say it, but it's the truth. It wasn't everyone by any means. In fact, it wasn't even a quarter. Just a few people were doing stupid things and it was beginning to spread so we had to just put our feet down and say no.

And with all due respect Brutal, had you presented it to us first, the GM staff as well as the admins who will overall get a say in this, there would not have been so much work set up for you. Nor would there be such dissapointment amongst the entire playerbase because we've had to say no to this. Not that I'm trying to say "GODDOMIT BRUTAL IT'S ALL YER FAULT", and the GM staff is aware of the effort you put in. Honestly, I'm not liking this one bit, but bad things happen, unfortunately.

Hell, you know Draknir's storyline? 68 pages in Microsoft Word, and it was probably gonna reach 100. All gone.

[Brutalskars]

The point is. I wanted to work on -my idea-. I didn't want to just throw the work on you guys if you didn't want to deal with it. So I dealt with it.

[Cressy]

...Uh. Then why post it in a public forum for people to comment on if it is just going to be your idea? Sounds like your mind is pretty much set on what you want and what you expected the players do give. And no offense to you, Brutal, but reading you defend your system so quickly to people object kind of puts perspective on your system and your mind set about it.

But, whatevs, yo.

[Hawk]

Sadly, things changed. When you were telling us about your system before, we had little amounts of progress made, which is why most of us were like "Let's see what he's got!" before. Now we've made a big leap of work, and I'm not sure if it was me being inactive and didn't hear anything about it, but now you also made a big leap of work and we didn't know about it.

And now we have this big new and sparkly idea, which is decent, but there's little that can be done with it.

[Aphetoros]

What's with this "we might" share details? Why does it need to be secret, I don't understand.

Cressy, he wanted public criticism. Constructive criticism. He didn't want you guys to come here and diss his work disrespectfully and in rude manners.

I'm disappointed, I don't think I'll be posting in this thread anymore.

[Wuvvums]

I remember a lot of debate about it in vent and a lot of arguments from GMs directly. They were telling you even before you posted the system the flaws in the tiers if I recall, and I'm not sure about you but I don't think it was coming off as the tiers having a chance, even before you were putting a lot of work in this. The thing is is that some GMs were saying they didn't want this, and you decided to do it anyways*.

You've been dismissive to GMs and just marked it off as "this system is a work in progress" and "arms races are inevitable so lets encourage it anyways." Now you're getting personal by acting like any criticism is an attack on your system and you're asking people like us to stop posting, and now you're trying to play the victim card.

Please respect the GMs, please respect their work. Please stop with the excuses.

*note: I wasn't present for all conversations but what I am trying to say is every time the tier system was coming up it was controversial and Brutal had to argue about it. This should have been a good indication to drop the tier system instead of making it and advertising it to members of coth.

[Cressy]

Wait, did anyone really do it rudely? I read honest opinions. If you perceive the messages as being rude or even as an attack on him, then that is how you read it. I know half the shit I write can be read as that when I did not intend for it to come off that way. Must I put pink lettering and chibi characters on my posts to make them come off friendly?

And.

I agree with Wuvvums here. Any time anyone said anything you didn't like you would get quiet or leave the channel/vent. :C

[Zarquon]

Reading Hawk's reply, I kind of understand where the GMs are coming from. However, I cannot help but feel injured, and I believe the player base would be thusly. We place our trust on the GMs to exercise their authority for the overall health of us all; the GMs place their trust upon us that we would abide by their decisions and the rules of the server. Upon this matter that affects all of us, I had truly and sincerely hope that the GMs would open their discussions to the opinions of the player base. That they would give this trust to us in allowing us this oppurtunity to voice our opinions.

But this trust was not given to us. Yet nonetheless, I can only say that we as the player base too then, should put our trust on the GMs, that they would come to the decision that they believe best. I as a player feels wounded by this, but I as a player too feels that we -should- give the GMs the time they need and our trust that they would come to the best of decisions on behalf of the server.

I find this painful, but I suppose then, that we should just be silent now and wait patiently. Perhaps one day we would be trusted enough by the GMs to be involved in their discussions that in all fairness affects everyone. Until that day then, we should place -our- trust on the GMs and simply wait and hope.

I suspect that trust works both way. If they would feel that we had broken theirs with the first system, then let us watch their second system, and give them back this trust. I do not like this, as Brutal had deserved better then outright negativity. Perhaps the least that could be done was a private message explaining the GM's stance. I honestly feel that it would have been much simpler then publicly shooting down the idea by pointing out flaws, without offering an explanation, especially after all that Brutal had put into this.

In light of Hawk's words, we should end the arguement, and wait patiently.

Yours sincerely,
Zarquon

[Hawk]

This is the problem, guys.

An individual has put forward an idea for a system, and a good one at that. The playerbase, so eager just to get ANYTHING right now, have been greatly encouraging him, defending his points, and helping him forge it into something better than before.

And now when the GMs have said that this won't work because of reasons already stated, everyone's raging on us and now we look like the bad guys. The fact that we too have been putting work into a system, and that as I said before, we're doing it for you guys, has been falling on deaf ears. Now we're being judged for supposedly not caring for the playerbase.

[Brutalskars]

I am gonna keep working. Not much else left to work on at this moment other than apply the changes.

[muhaha8]

Can we please just take a step back and look at what we're doing here? Stop beating the dead horse more, and just look. This is exactly what we shouldn't be doing guys. We're so dead-set in our own ways that we don't like anything that isn't either our own, or something akin to our own! Open up your minds, and give people the chance they deserve! Regardless of how far along the GMs' idea may have come, I think they are in the wrong by saying that they won't compare the two to see whose is better. We, as a playerbase, are in the wrong, though, too. We need to take a step back and stop criticizing. Remember that rule from childhood? Oh yeah, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. There was a reason we were taught that.

Basically, people, give the idea a shot. If it doesn't work, so what? At least Brutal tried. That's better than most (present GM company excluded) can say. Even if the GM team's idea is implemented first, take Brutal's idea into consideration as a backup! Imperfections and all. Let him refine it to his heart's content.

Let's just drop the arguing and enjoy ourselves... That's what we're here for anyways, right?