The Tier System: (A prestige system idea, work in progress)

[Brutalskars]

Well. Not really a T5 being Kret.... Kret may be a T6 or 7 eh?
Jk.

But really, arms races happen ICly all the time, if there is conflict that ends with violence. Player against player, there is generally an arms race. We cannot really stop that, we can discourage it but it happens. I also believe people may be focusing on the power level section i drafted up a bit too much. Sure I made some sort of and attempt to make some stuff make sense, but it may of just aroused more dislike. We need to see what we can do to make this better please?

I would rather less just shooting down system ideas and keeping this open in order to improve my idea. No offense to anyone meant, but I would favor we just remain on trying to improve, and stay away yet from what I still have seen dispite this being civil, cryptic hatred. Please, if you do not like the system, work with us on how to improve it.

[Aphetoros]

I think the power level thing if you didn't use it in relation to players, but perhaps how many theoretical 'levels' after 80 they'd have? Not that they'd gain those levels, but as a reference? Bah. No that's not a good idea, I just think that saying a Fel-sworn T3 could take out six or seven players is presumptuous, and that you shouldn't use it in relation to how many 'players' they can 'take out'. Know what I'm sayin'?

[Brutalskars]

Well I never meant the player numbers for kills as canon. I was just fumbling around with numbers for any sort of example to work. I understand it upsetted people that I put 'killing' and stuff. This is in the works yes? So we can rebuild it right? Yes, yes we can.

You do not have to fight, that is a big thing. You can decide not to fight, and we see on CotH non-prestiges can down prestiges. It is not impossible; I will be rewriting it soon once we get some more input.

[Spiralin]

I personally think, let people be prestiges, don't get special bonuses in fights, just enjoy the special powers and new ic looks, that further rp between players, and not the strength you have in fights.


Edit: Like a fel-sworn changes physical looks, and your alignment shifts, changing ic reactions. But that's just my opinion.

[Duraza]

But really, arms races happen ICly all the time, if there is conflict that ends with violence. Player against player, there is generally an arms race. We cannot really stop that, we can discourage it but it happens. I also believe people may be focusing on the power level section i drafted up a bit too much.

1) I see a lot of people going "Tier 5 is going to destroy us all!"

- Currently, if the system was put into place, the first T5 character would be Kretol. That is the level of power that we're speaking about. I don't even expect to see a T5 come out in anything less than a year if the system comes out.

- And, as much as a T5 has power, it all depends on what class it is, and how the RP session occurs. If a T5 Warrior is taking a stroll in STV, and finds himself surrounded by five T1 warlocks with 5 demonic minions, all from high ground. That Warrior is going to be -lucky- to survive, seeing that he has ten targets to take down, plus they are all out of his reach.

These are fair points. I'm going to put the topic of 'how powerful' to the side because I'll assume that you obviously aren't looking to make 10 all around rambos. Instead, I want to bring up a different point.

The fact that you could become a Tier 3 Warrior and fight (quite) evenly with a Demon Hunter is a great idea too.

I don't exactly see why a normal warrior should be able to fight on par with a Demon Hunter. Why? Because Demon Hunters are rare individuals that most people (even a powerful warrior) never have to deal with. They are trained to battle in a way entirely different than a warrior would. They may have an entirely different mentality on battle. No matter how much experience a warrior has, he's going against an opponent that he's probably never trained to face. Thats where much of the 'power' of the prestige classes as they are now comes for me. The unknown style of combat, unknown skills of the rare individual.

It works the same with many other prestige classes. How many base class characters would actually have experience dealing with a Fel-sworn, Dragonsworn, or Shadow Ascendant? To put a warrior or mage class on par with one of them at any point means that the player behind may assume that their character will simply fight back without any prior knowledge of what they are facing. Heck, most Tier 2 prestige titles shouldn't know how to face Tier 3 in the current system and among Tier 3, for the most part you should be baffled about how to combat each other.

I suppose, what I'm trying to get at here is that power doesn't presuppose that there is a sudden evening of the playing field. Even a Tier 5 Warrior or a Tier 5 Battlemage should find themselves in a hard situation trying to go against a Demon Hunter. Why? Because they are simply different from what you're used to encountering (unless in your prestige post you've dealt with them for whatever reasons. I can see a warrior who knows how to take down X prestige class but it would become tiresome if everyone just wanted their base class to be able to deal with X, Y, and Z prestige classes that are supposed to be rare individuals).

So ultimately, this is to make the point that no matter how much power your character has, it also takes familiarity with the 'style' of certain prestige classes. I would like to see a Tier 4 warrior having problems with a Tier 2 Steamwarrior simply because the Steamwarrior fights in a way that is different, that makes him/her a variant class. And I'm not trying to make the point that someone who takes the time to reach Tier 5 for their warrior cannot defeat a Tier 3 prestige in one on one. Simply that power should not presuppose experience. In fact it might be easier in some cases for the Tier 2 Steamwarrior to take down the Tier 5 Warrior.

I don't know how you'd 'make that a rule' of your system but I'd love to see it somehow included if you find it a fair point.

[Spiralin]

You know my opinion has changed to Duraza, slightly, let everyone have the same level of power, just that icly your character truly wouldn't know how to fight a Demon Hunter, or a Shadow Ascendant. It's true, though I only trust fight prestiges anyway, because it allows better variety of power, which matches more evenly.

An example I'll use from an ic standpoint is I had a character that may've run into a Dead Shot, I personally don't know much about a Dead Shot, oocly, let alone icly, so that I'd know how to handle my character's reaction icly.

[muhaha8]

Spiralin... I agree with you. Sort of. You shouldn't make a prestige just to have one, though. Although I do agree that it's about the different changes that take place in a person when they -do- prestige. You grow as a character via prestige, and that's what it should be all about. Not just because X player wants Y character to be more powerful. Not to say that power can't be a legitimate IC reason to prestige. Hell, that stands for -most- evil, and a fair number of good prestiges. If Aulten ever went Fel Sworn, it'd be so he can have power. It's a craving of his. Not to mention the pseudo-immortality thing that comes with it. If Mythor ever went as a Warden, or a Demon Hunter, it'd be so he could better protect his people. He would feel that he isn't strong enough to do it as is.

But I digress for going on and on and on and stuff. Anyways, I love the idea Brutal. On paper, it should limit the expansion and growth of prestiges, which is a good thing. Although I'm not terribly clear on whether or not one has to simply say "I want X character to be Y prestige" and that's it, when applying, or if it's more like "I want X character to be Y prestige. This is why, this is what X wants to gain, this is what X would lose, this is how X would go about it."

[muhaha8]

Oh yeah, I do have another thought/worry to post about. Characters whom have either been a class for their entire lengthy lives, or have devoted their time to advancing their abilities in it. Like, for example, my Draenei, Kaelis. He's ancient. He's been practicing Arcane for millenia. He's damn proficient IC. Does this mean that under the new system people like Kaelis become the same level of proficiency as an apprentice (which is what I am assuming that tier one for mages is supposed to represent)?

[Aphetoros]

That's a good question.

[Brutalskars]

You must start at T1. But remember it does not mean 'apprentice'
T1 is what we play from day to day, You know our normal characters that have not taken the paths I have on this system.

Now Duraze, a counter point to this whole 'unkown fighting style' and 'normal warrior is same as T3 warrior'. A T3 warrior has trained and learned techniques and has even the pyshcological edge over normal warriors generally. Or he is just much more versed in combat. Plus coming from a guy that has practiced martial arts even against combat techniques I do not know, it does not mean anything really at times. If you are fighting in a strange technique but I am still better than you with a common technique I am still superior right?

As I stated, I am not the one giving combat bonuses or anything. That is up to how the players want to handle it, but the point remains, a warrior should be able to become as strong as a Demon Hunter in some regard because I do not know, but the commander guy of the Cenarion forces in Silithus is a warrior, I highly doubt he is a pushover 'normal' warrior.

Classes should be aloud to scale in power, it is just common sense right? Even if most of the power is limited to advantages in communities or being unusually charismatic. I do not have to be exactly as tough as you to beat you right? But that is an arguement we can have all day. Right now I am happy to say, I am working on revising the document with all your suggestions. Please keep giving constructive points about the system that way the 1.1 version will come out better than this first draft.

[Aphetoros]

Power Levels:
This is a hot subject of anything to do with character classes getting bigger or getting a new stronger class. What exactly are power levels in this tier system, well even if you favor roll or trust fights or no fights against players at all. It is important to remember with tier increase generally comes an increase of power. Then again some people dislike the idea of power, as if it is not something you can gain from roleplaying to become a stronger character. THat is a side effect of becoming stronger right? Power?
Remember yet again, the balancing of a fight comes down to those involved in the fight and what they agree too. I cannot hash out every single class and their bonuses in every type of fight.
This part is really good, I think it's great as is.

Let us look to felsworn, warriors and steam warriors for my first examples. The felsworn is strong, but at the second tier is not horrendously powerful. This is the beginning of their power, and their mutations. The obvious power increase is a felsworn can most of the time take on 2 or 3 tier one characters. But what differences may arise?
Say my felsworn was a warrior before becoming a felsworn, I am going to go for big claws and heavy armored demonic growths. This means I probably can go against 3 to 4 people in melee and 5 when exerting myself heavily that are tier ones.
But say I was a warlock instead, and I went to increase my fel and shadow magic abilities and chose wings. Sure I can take on 2 to 3 characters using my magics but if I am stupid enough at the second tier to go into melee like that I am not going to do too well.

This could be reworded, something more about how a Felsworn is powerful, and that in a fight they would be very hard to beat depending on how things go, instead of relating it directly to taking on characters. Another thing is, you could add in about how this was simply an example (same with below about rewording the taking on characters thing) and that it works the same way with other things. I.e. a tier three hexer is on par in ability with a tier three felsworn, however, a tier 1 warrior can still horribly beat up a tier three hexer if they get into melee combat and the hexer in question is not versed in melee combat. I think that it would make sense if you pointed out, probably in bolded red, that everything depends on the character and how they've learned and what the character knows how to do. A good example of this is an archmage specialized in frost magic and an archmage specialized in fire magic. A fire magic specialized archmage isn't gonna be tossing out frost novas, while a frost magic specialized archmage isn't going to be tossing out fireballs, but a general specialized archmage isn't going to be hurling out flamestrikes or javelins and explosions of cold and arcane. Like you said, there needs to be trust.

Then we look to a more situational character, the steamwarrior. I am easy to kill like a tier 1 character outside my armor at least at tier 2. But of course if I am in my massive steamarmor I will be able to go toe to toe like the warrior-felsworn does against 3 to 4 enemies and I start pushing and really pushing it at 5 to 6.

What about a normal warrior? If I am a tier 2 warrior, I have worked to become tougher and stronger, more skilled than my tier 1 brothers and sisters. At tier 2 I can go toe to toe with 2 tier 1 characters with using my entire set of powers. Then I start pushing myself as I begin fight 3, and then I am seriously risking life at 4.

Power levels, more over, a character's skills and abilities they gain as they move up the tiers are agreed upon with game masters, then once a fair balanced set up path is before the character they may begin to advance to their next tier.

And set aside, I know GMs have been posting, and I love you guys to death and don't want you to get mad at me. But I think you (not just you, a few others in this thread but as I was reading this post... surprised me to see from you Anski because I just think it was... rude at the least.)

What if the last time I RPed a char, he was a bumbling, stumbling imbicile, and the next time people saw him, he was a Demon Hunter?

Well, I have a LOOOOOT to say about this prestige system that i'm going to hold my tongue on, but to negate this example, Demon Hunters are completely isolated from society during their training. They may shortly converse with someone who wanders their way but it's not really looked highly upon.

I'm not a GM. I'm not going to try to be a GM here, but I just want to refer this thread to this. I'm sorry, but it's true. I'm disappointed, though I doubt my opinion carries much weight here, with some of these posts on this thread, and I really think this needs to be said before it gets out of hand. Brutal has put a lot of work into this, and I want this thread to stay on topic. As Brutal said, we require constructive feedback and positive posts, and like Kretol said, we need to think before we post to see if what we say sounds rude, because I really doubt all the rudeness I've seen was intentional. Thanks guys, I really want something like this to be worked out and I think that if we all calm down and take a few deep breaths, we can get together and figure something out that works for everyone.

[Arrillion]

Brutalskars, I'm going to be different and say I love your idea. For Instance I've always wanted to roll a Mountain King. But a normal tier 1 warrior wouldn't be likely to become one. He needs to become epic first, maybe even a berserker before someone would even be willing to train one. So the tier system makes sense.

Second big thing is: GM's can judge if a player is worthy to have a certain higher tier by reading their previous post, it also ensure people actually put effort in them.

Great idea Brutalskars!

[Miah]

How im looking at this is: Say we had -no- prestige system so far. One person proposed the system we have right now, and one person proposed this. Im sure we would find an equal amount, or more flaws with our current system than this one. There is always gonna be flaws, but this one seems much smoother and much less "Jumping up to be one thing one moment, to much more powerful and different the next"

And on the case of "powerlevelling". Wouldn't this be obvious? I'd like to think that the majority of us are mature, sensible players who would not do this (Again with the lack of faith in the player base guys ) But if someone was putting in their next level applications the day it became available, and could not think up adequate reasoning, or cite relevant examples of how their character has grown through Ingame RP, then the person reviewing their level-up application could pretty easily see, and say "Your just not ready yet. Slow down, relax, and take your time, and you might get there." Or even "I think your character has advanced as far as it can and should. Levelling you again would only be detrimental to the RP of yourself and those around you, so please don't be offended, but Im going to keep you at level X"

I don't see this as a system where everyone can eventually be level 5. I see it as a way of the GM's being able to adequately police the prestige system so that you are only given as much power as it is appropriate for you and your character to be responsible for. Heck, if were mature enough, we could link this in with the resurrection policy, in that if a character is getting too unruly with their power, goes out picking fights, and dies, a resurrection drawback could be that it permanently reduces them down a level, through the injuries sustained having a detrimental effect on their fighting abilities.

It would not be the GM's job to just stamp you with an OK sign and send you on your way, thus creating a server full of ultra-powerful characters. They are the ones deemed responsible for the good of the server, and as such they would have the right to approve or deny character levelling as they see fit, providing it was not abused, (Which I quite doubt it would be by the GM's.) for the good of the server as a whole. Not for the individual player with a love for being the most powerful

Be happy guys, constructive criticism If you don't like something, improve it, don't bash it.

[BountyHunter]

I do quite like this system but there is one thing I believe should be added. An application.

If you use an application like we had on the first system we used when barley anyone would go for a prestige, it would stop the players from taking impulsive action when choosing a prestige to be and might reconsider their decision. One of the main questions on the application for the first system which made me completely choose not to take up a prestige was 'How will you use this ICly?'. If you ask everyone who chooses to advance or take up a title this question, there would be a good number less and it will also force people to think about how it would benefit them not only in new abilities but also how it will enhance theirs and other's RP. After all, that's the point of a prestige class.

So, a simple application can make so much difference, I suggest making them more lengthy and in-depth for each tier you raise up in.

[Duraza]

If you are fighting in a strange technique but I am still better than you with a common technique I am still superior right?

A fair point.

I do quite like this system but there is one thing I believe should be added. An application.

I'm seconding the notion of having an application added. Perhaps, even in the application you can state how far you are thinking to take your specified title's tier to begin with. Along with it should come your concept of what kinds of powers you will receive when you reach Tier y. This won't be set in stone but this way the player can show that they've spent some time thinking things through.

And lets say you reach Tier Y. There's nothing stopping you from once again speaking to the GMs and explaining character motivation to reach higher Tiers if you want that progression. If you get to Tier X and you don't feel like doing the remanding work to achieve Tier Y then you can also feel free to halt your advancement. Whether or not you can pick up again a while later when you find achieving Tier Y applicable or you need approval again doesn't matter too much. Either path could be a GM decided choice for how to handle things.

Edit: Obviously it doesn't have to be a very long and involved application. In some cases I'm sure a simple 'I would like to train to be this tier prestige' would do (like trying to obtain Tier 2). Training till Tier 3 may come with a bit more explanation and the upper Tiers I'd say would take something a bit more in-depth.