Concerning Off-Handedness and Custom Items

[FlyingSquirrel]

Then so are Magi, Warlocks, Paladins and Death Knights with guns and bows, Squirrel?

A number of Gunadins will most likely be sad to hear it.

Well, if they can use guns, then why can't Magi use broadswords? This has been fought over, and shot down, before.

Actually, a mage can use a broadsword for two reasons:
1). It's a one handed sword.
2). Battle/War mages are also trained in melee to an extent.

I meant things like 2-handed swords. Not good with names of swords.

Claymores!

[Psychyn]

I've personally always believed that "Anyone can wield anything." but eh, that's not shared on CotH sadly. Realistically looking, mages can run around with two handed swords all they want, but it doesn't mean they are any good at it.

To the multiclassing comment earlier, it isn't allowed. But you aren't multiclassing, if it is lore supported that your priest wields a bow. If it was lore supported that mages wore plate, we would be all wearing plate in-game. Priestesses of the moon, are lore trained to use a bow alongside their healing powers, so ripping the bow out of their hands because any normal priest can't use it, is just plain silly.

[Beltharean]

I think it's a rather dubious statement to say a priestess of Elune (not the moon, since they're a prestige class) wouldn't know how to use a bow, or a mage couldn't possibly use a pistol. Have you ever shot a gun? It's like giving someone a high five, seriously. There's eight year old girls shooting fifty cal revolvers at the range I go to. If WoW was real, and I was a mage (and I don't care how scrawny you are, you can shoot a pistol) I'd have guns strapped -all- over me in case I ran out of mana, got silenced, or was too tired to cast.

There's a reason that technology is even present in wow; because it can compete with the Arcane and other forms of magic which take lifetimes to use. To not take advantage of an easy power source would be ludicrous, and anyone who doesn't needs to be taught that the world isn't as simple as it may seem. If you're a priest who doesn't know how to use the shadow, you better bet your sweet a** you should be carrying a gun, because you're gonna get worked over by the next jack or Joe that comes around the corner with a switch blade.

(Sent from teh iPhonage)

[dastmo]

I've personally always believed that "Anyone can wield anything." but eh, that's not shared on CotH sadly.

Not anymore, at least... yet, I agree here. But as someone said before... the excuse "Others do it, so should I"... never liked it.

There's eight year old girls shooting fifty cal revolvers at the range I go to.

And I've seen 30 years old women fall on their back after shooting a .50... guess it's up to the person. *shrug*

[Beltharean]

It's all about taking the extra ten minutes out of your day to learn the correct stance. I'm pretty sure if you can reattach limbs, crush undead legions, and shield friends from attack, you could learn to hold a gun.

[Grakor456]

Ooh. That makes a lot more sense, Grak.

But then, why not make all Bow/Gun(Except the pistols.) Custom Items Off-hand? That way only the classes that actually have the ability to use Guns and Bows in-game, will be able to wield those custom items?

It'd clear up the confusion of Magi and Warlocks and Paladins and DKs shooting things, wouldn't it? Well, maybe not the DKs, but still...

Because guns are held in the main hand when fired. Holding a rifle in the off-hand would look...odd.

We COULD put class restrictions on the ranged weapons, but I'm not sure it'd be worth attempting to convince Kretol to do this at the moment.

To everyone else: Keep in mind, guns in WoW are not like modern firearms. They're much more crude and unreliable, closer to flintlocks than today's handgun. I imagine that the main reason that many classes don't use guns (aside from balance) is that qualifying as being skilled in the use of firearms is more than just being able to pull a trigger. It's being able to aim it properly (not as easy as some would tell you), clean it, repair it, properly load it, etc. This stuff requires training, stuff the average person can't just pick up and do, and thus it just isn't practical for your average character to be carrying around a gun.

Also, mages can use wands. Why would they lower themselves to using something so mundane?

[Aphetoros]

Another reason is because people are -already- using weaponry outside their class. Magi and Warlocks are actively using Bows and Guns. So, if they can do it, why can't Priests?... Especially when it seems like those items were designed -specifically- for staff-wielders, and to my knowledge, the Off-Hand part was added only to allow them to sheathe correctly across the back. (That was the answer I got when I asked Grakor).

Not quite what I said. Handedness has nothing to do with whether it goes on the back or not, that's the weapon model itself. Handedness determines if it's in the correct hand when out, though, and in what direction it's pointing when on the back. Bows are held in the off hand when used by Warriors, Rogues, and Hunters, so it's off-hand.

The bow/gun weapons were never meant to be used by classes that normally can't use them. That other classes can was just an unintended side effect of how we were forced to implement the weapons.

Well according to my laziness I don't want to remove all these wrapped quotes. But why not just make them "held-in-off-hand". I don't know if that would... work?

[FlyingSquirrel]

Then everybody would be able to use them.

[Saronsen]

Anyone can hold and carry a gun, bow, or crossbow.

It doesn't mean they can use it properly, if at all.

Trying to say they can't use something because it's not allowed by the games original mechanics is a weak arguement. A Mage, if they really wanted to, could put on plate. But they would become very slow, spells would be difficult to cast, and they would end up just being a target.

A Paladin could attempt to use a bow, but chances are his shots will miss, every time.

Anyone who tries to use a gun could fail terribly, either because they jump every time they pull the trigger, affect accuracy, or just because they do not know how to use it.

Roleplay is in no way, shape, or form related to the actual ingame mechanics. In my opinion, everyone should be allowed to use everything to some extent. Mages in plate? Sure, just remember ICly that you're slow and unable to react quickly, and your spells are difficult to cast, if not weaker.

Paladins using bows? Sure, without weeks, or even months of training, especially without someone training you, you're going to be missing every shot.

Mages using guns? See above, and relate it to mages.

It doesn't matter if everyone can use something. I myself as a person (as an example) could put on platemail, use a sword, and a bow. Why cant anyone else in WoW? Anyone can HOLD anything. It's using it that's tricky.

[Beltharean]

There are Gatling guns and rocket launchers attached to the sides of gravity-defying air ships in Northrend. I'm sure it's not a stretch to believe there are revolvers in lore when we're a step below fully automatic weaponry. I'm only saying that because in the past you've knocked anything even related to the RPG books which mention revolvers quite a few times, as well as attachments to guns to make them semi-automatic.

[Grakor456]

There are Gatling guns and rocket launchers attached to the sides of gravity-defying air ships in Northrend. I'm sure it's not a stretch to believe there are revolvers in lore when we're a step below fully automatic weaponry. I'm only saying that because in the past you've knocked anything even related to the RPG books which mention revolvers quite a few times, as well as attachments to guns to make them semi-automatic.

You can't make that assumption. WoW's tech level is all over the place, with some things far more primitive than it should be and some far more advanced should be. Essentially, WoW's tech in any one field is as advanced or primitive as Blizzard needs it to be.

But yes, let's talk about the d20, since you brought it up.

Core Rules 2nd, pages 179-180 talks about firearms and the use of gunpowder, described in a way close to flintlock firearms. The only firearms within this book are flintlock pistols and blunderbusses. More Magic and Mayhem, the magic and tech book for the 2nd edition, includes guns that shoot acid and fire, but no revolvers. So, where are you getting the information that they're talked about "quite a few times" in the d20?

[Beltharean]

I’d just like to start off by saying that came off a bit disrespectful. I doubt that’s the intention and as the head enforcer you probably know all too well that emotions and their portrayal get muddled through text. In any case, food for thought!

I couldn’t find anywhere that mentioned revolvers now that I’ve gone back through the RPG books, so I must have just made the assumption that the modern linear progression of firearms carried over into WoW... That being matchlocks, long guns (blunderbuss, arquebus, muskets, etc), flintlock pistols, pepperbox, revolver, semiautomatic, automatic (gatling), automatic (machine) in the general sense. Don’t want to get too into it. That must not be the case however, it seems it’s gone matchlock, long guns, flintlock, pepperbox, semiautomatic, automatic (gatling), skipping over revolvers completely. I find it rather strange myself, but oh well! I suppose all I can do to give my point is quote the semiautomatic and fully automatic weaponry/tech mods from the RPG.

Magic and Mayhem, Page 177, Queueing Quiver (Revolver/Revolving technology)

More Magic and Mayhem, Page 169, Autofeed Tech Mod.

More Magic and Mayhem, page 169, Multi-Barreled (Pepperbox)

More Magic and Mayhem, Page 195, Dwarven Reciprocator

I know in one of the other books there’s a mention to another magazine system, as well as a redundancy with the Dwarven Reciprocators in MM and MM&M, as well as some other items that are probably hidden somewhere in the other RPG books, but I just got back from work and it’s kind of a pain to go through all the books... In any case, I was indeed wrong about revolvers, but there does seem to be higher quality guns as well as lower quality. Not too much of a stretch to assume someone out there’s invented the ‘missing link’ to steal an evolutionary term since we’re talking about the evolution of firearms. It is a stretch however, so I’ll replace any mention or use of revolvers on my characters with pepperboxes or magazine fed guns.

I do still stand by my point however, that anyone could use a firearm. They may have been harder to fire with older technology and I’ll agree with that, but not so hard as to completely discard them from use. Here are some examples to prove my point, with average joes shooting a black powder weapon without much trouble. Mostly chose women since they’re generally speaking not quite as strong as men. Not trying to allude to anything sexist, just trying to prove my point because I couldn’t find any priests or mages on youtube that were shooting flintlocks. :P

Black Powder Rifle

Spoiler:

Black Powder Rifle

Another Rifle

Spoiler:

Another Rifle

Black Powder Pistol

Spoiler:

Black Powder Pistol

One Handed

Spoiler:

One Handed

Did I say I couldn't find a priest shooting a flintlock..?

Spoiler:

Did I say I couldn't find a priest shooting? I think I did...

[Kaelvan]

http://www.threadmeters.com/v-1aCD/Guns_...ols_in_RP/

This is a nice thread to read.

As for the RPG books, it is briefly mentioned but not confirmed to be in existence. Aside from that, CotH doesn't use everything that's in the RPG books.

As for the use of guns, the classes that can't use them can live without them. They don't -need- them, it would be -nice- to have them, but lots of things are -nice- to have. It just isn't needed nor does it make sense in most cases aside from a few unique situations.

[Grakor456]

I’d just like to start off by saying that came off a bit disrespectful. I doubt that’s the intention and as the head enforcer you probably know all too well that emotions and their portrayal get muddled through text. In any case, food for thought!

Kretol looked at this and couldn't detect where I was being disrespectful, so I'm not sure what to say other than it wasn't intentional and I have a rather blunt way of speaking. I'm sorry if I came off that way.

Now, to answer this, I'm going to discount the Magic and Mayhem reference, as that book is from the 1st ed and it pretty outdated overall...

More Magic and Mayhem, Page 169, Autofeed Tech Mod.

More Magic and Mayhem, page 169, Multi-Barreled (Pepperbox)

Tech mods don't really mean much here. One, they can only be made, installed, and activated by trained engineers, suggesting they're more complicated than you're making them out to be. Two, tech mods increase the malfunction rating on firearms, which means that these things are very prone to failure.

More Magic and Mayhem, Page 195, Dwarven Reciprocator

Specifically mentions working via clockwork.

To the rest: no one said that someone can't just fire a flintlock. I said that not anyone can just pick one up, and know how to load it, repair it, un-jam it, etc. WoW is a world where tech is very unreliable, and without proper training you're not going to use it because it's not practical, unless someone else just hands you a pistol.

Also, if we go by d20 logic, mages still can't use it. They're exotic weapons in the system.

[flammos200]

Magi can take the Exotic Weapons feat, if they want to. They won't be very good at it, due to a low Base Attack Bonus, but sure, they can do it.