Death knight voices.

[Hexproof]

Anyways, waaay off track there.

Without making extreme inferences, there is no lore supporting the changing of a Death Knights voice. If someone can find some lore that supports the changing of a voice, then I'd gladly accept it.

Show me a specific lore statement where it is concisely and unarguably stated that suppression is impossible, and I'll gladly concede to that argument.

However, we cannot simply make things up just because we want to have characters that are special. Your character is special because you are the one behind the wheel. Your actions make you special. Little aesthetic tidbits like eye-color, hair-color, the shape of your ears, or whatever, have no real effect on who your character is. To be so bold as to make up an enchanted item that can change your voice is not only silly, but potentially powergaming.

There is a difference between giving someone "special hair" that changes colour and giving them the ability to interact with the rest of society on an important, basic level. I'm not a particular fan of the method, but with responsible application it'd hardly be powergaming in my own opinion.

After all of the evidence piled against the notion that Death Knights can choose whether or not they have an echoing voice, and after the negative response from players who do not believe it is character-enhancing, it should be pretty obvious that it goes against the rules.

There are just as many people who would believe quite the opposite. The main difference in this, as in most debates of this nature, is that both sides see their own argument, and without irrefutable proof they will refuse to back down until someone gets hurt, does something silly, or someone above them makes a formal ruling on the subject. It clearly doesn't go against the rules, as if the rules were so "clear" there'd be a lot less vitriol and general indecency over the subject.


To the side that is, in this case, so very much of the belief that this is harmful, I want to ask you "why" it is so much so? What makes a Death Knight's voice so important to your roleplaying that this be policed and persecuted and controlled? And "to maintain server standards" is not a viable argument. The GMs and Admins are very much capable of keeping this server running well and just as capable of keeping the "bad roleplay" out. It's not our jobs, and it's got the potential to cause terrible arguments and hurt feelings over very, very trivial things if we begin to try to make it so.

To the side that desires more "freedom" with Death Knights, whether it be related to their state of undeath, their voice, or any other quality, please remember that they do have a very strict set of lore, and a backstory that is emotionally hemorrhaging at best, and utterly decimating to their psyche at worst. "Normalicy" for a Death Knight is all but impossible, and if your character would be better suited to normal life, and the Death Knight backstory is not integral to the character, then it would be better if they were not a Death Knight. There's nothing wrong with this, but do not have them be a Death Knight for the simple purpose of "making them cooler". It does nothing but add fuel to the flames of what is (I, personally, find trivially so) an excessively heated argument.

(Edit: I "copied" something I'd intended to cut and paste. It caused a bit of repetition which was remedied.)

[CharAznable]

You bring up the other side's argument right there. Death Knights follow a strict lore, and aside from the body, when they were/are brought back, they aren't meant to have individuality. They're massed produced soldiers. Raise 'em, equip 'em, send them out. They weren't meant for subtlety, or sneaking, that's why they clomp around in plate armor wielding two handed swords in the beginning. Giving them an ability to repress their dual tone voice would defeat the purpose of having an armored terror machine at your command.

Its not just about standards, its about maintaining consistency with the lore and the story told. Yes, this is a private server, but if we're going to claim that we follow the established lore and story for things, it needs to be followed.

As you pointed out, so many people play the class just because it'd be cool and edgy to do so, when they don't know dick about the lore to be frank, and end up making super Mary Sue characters that some how get passed.

Death Knights aren't supposed to interact with society normally. They're former agents of the lich king who mostly are attempting to atone for their sins. They don't really need to go talk to bob down at the market to get that thing for that gala event, thus requiring a normal voice. They don't need to eat, sleep, breath, etc. Their weapons are generally taken care of at Rune forges, and so on. To 'need' a normal voice for anything on a DK would assume that they can have any sense of normalcy, which, as you pointed out, they do not have.

[Hexproof]

To 'need' a normal voice for anything on a DK would assume that they can have any sense of normalcy, which, as you pointed out, they do not have.

"All but impossible". They can still try for reintigration, but it'd likely be extremely difficult and nigh-impossible to ever fully achieve, and that's why I advocate this.

The fact of the matter is that every character is unique, and to insist on every Death Knight being played as little more than a soulless (I'm not speaking literally here, but just using poetic wording.) killing machine, is to more or less remove any reason to play a Death Knight character.

The term "Mary Sue" would only be apt if it meant that a single quality could make a character a poor one, when this is hardly the case. A "Mary Sue" is problemless and portrayed as little less than perfect, or at least is so capable of ignoring their own flaws of character and life. Being able to hide one's flaws does not suddenly mean they've vanished. That's only the case if they're played poorly enough.

[CharAznable]

Yes, but being unique doesn't remove them from confines of established lore. Death Knights, regardless of how they're played after the starting quest line, start off as soulless minions of Arthas who are indeed little more than killing machines. What they do after is their own business, but why would a leader who is aim is to strike absolute horror in his enemies via destructive displays and unnatural sights and sounds give his soldiers the ability to mask their horrid and haunting voices when in a real fight that could play in to the psychological warfare aspects?

Arthas didn't care about these Death Knights enough to make them in any way different from one another. Hell he wasn't even expecting most of them to live, and why should he? He could just raise more later, it was whatever for him until Fordring showed up at Lights Hope and totally messed his plan up.

Which brings up my main point. With the above in mind, why implement a way for them to mask their ability when it was in no ways important, or even relevant to their established task? I'm not saying a magic item can't exist (though I think it's incredibly stupid, but then again there are other dumb magic items that do things as well out there), but to say they can do it unaided is where I draw my distaste with the concept from.

[Hexproof]

But that's just it. I don't claim it was "given to them". I claim that to suppress the "deathly echo" or whatever you'd call it, would be to fight or resist (in some small respect) the numerous enchantments that make a Death Knight a Death Knight. Arthas needn't worry over such a trivial thing at the time because all Death Knights were bound to his will. They might have been fighting, or they might not have been able to.

In any case, resisting the enchantments on such a small (but very much individual) level would only become a truly viable option after freedom had been attained.

(I'd also suggest not calling anyone's magic items or tools "stupid" or "dumb". It's rather disrespectful and really does not help your argument.)

[CharAznable]

But the items are pretty ridiculous. Because you are appending an ability to an item that benefits solely the player. Which is all right. But if the sole argument is solely based on an item that has been enchanted to serve an end that makes their character apart, that makes a very weak argument in of itself. And it also opens the door for things that are more ridiculous later. Like an enchantment that just makes a man's eyes glow color X. A voice shouldn't be a defining trait of a character, it should part of an over all whole. If a suppressed voice is SO important to a character, then that's a pretty weak character in all likelihood. To further examine my point. The amount of semi-sentient, to sentient Death Knights that don't have this voice trait are very slim, I can't even think of any off the top of my head.

If you can name me ten that aren't special characters or PCs suiting their own needs, I'll concede.

You call it fighting against the enchantment that is part of what makes him who he is... but how? What methodology? You're saying the just will it away? How many people just will things away in Magic that aren't ridiculously powerful heroes, or some kind of powerful caster? How are they fighting this to subdue it? If you can't provide the method how then justifiably there wouldn't be a way. Basing things on conjecture when lore points to otherwise is picking and choosing what to apply to your character.

[Kaghuros]

This seems like a fairly silly argument from both sides, as it has descended into ad hominem attacks on each other to at least some degree. However, to dragonmad, CharAznable is correct on one account: the burden of proof is yours, and you have no proof for what you argue. If there were one Death Knight ingame or in written lore without a ghostly and generally undead-sounding voice, it would be more reasonable to have Death Knights who could camouflage among humans. However, even the most human (or whatever else) looking in the game world have the deathly voice as a result of their special death knightiness.

Even if we don't know why Death Knights have such an echoing magical voice, or I simply don't, it exists and therefore must be dealt with as a drawback of the class just like any other. To not do so would be like neglecting their glowing eyes or need to do harm.

[BountyHunter]

. . .it exists and therefore must be dealt with as a drawback of the class just like any other. To not do so would be like neglecting their glowing eyes or need to do harm.

That about sums it up for me.

[Hexproof]

the burden of proof is yours, and you have no proof for what you argue.

Admittedly this is true, and I admit that. I was going off of pure speculation, and somewhere along the line it seems that it was misinterpreted that I claimed it was fact. However, I maintain that given the ambiguity of the lore, it's just as groundless to jump to the conclusion that permanency is the nature of the voice.

I've found no lore reference for it one way or another aside from the fact that it exists. I would certainly appreciate if someone could cite a source (aside from mere existence) on the permanency of the voice.

[FlyingSquirrel]

the burden of proof is yours, and you have no proof for what you argue.

Admittedly this is true, and I admit that. I was going off of pure speculation, and somewhere along the line it seems that it was misinterpreted that I claimed it was fact. However, I maintain that given the ambiguity of the lore, it's just as groundless to jump to the conclusion that permanency is the nature of the voice.

I've found no lore reference for it one way or another aside from the fact that it exists. I would certainly appreciate if someone could cite a source (aside from mere existence) on the permanency of the voice.

Well, we don't really need any more evidence. It's there, and there's nothing saying that it's not there, so I think that's really some of the more solid evidence Blizzard has given us of anything in the last year.

[BountyHunter]

Existence is, funnily enough, the most solid evidence one could give regarding whether or not something should something exist or not.

Eg, I can see that dog, it barks, therefore that dog exists and cannot speak fluent British-English.

[Hexproof]

I meant on the state of permanence, nothing more. It obviously exists.

[CharAznable]

I think what they meant was that with no evidence pointing to the contrary, it would be assumed that it is permanent as every single one Death Knight has it and none have exhibited the ability to suppress it in any manner.

Thus why its existence and permanence (discounting and OOC mechanic that is there for the purpose of optimizing gameplay, not RP) is being noted. Without proof or even a hint of the contrary, it would be assumed that this is just a trait all Death Knights have, and thus have to live with. Pardon the pun.