Undead.

[flammos200]

Undead still rest or can get knocked unconscious/immobile.

Can they be knocked unconscious? How?

We know for a fact that Undead don't have a working metabolism, thus, no real working nerves - they're really animated corpses with a spirit that puppets them, so you shouldn't be able to stop them unless you dismantle them. And even so, I would suspect an undead head to keep chattering at you. Unless blasted by an amount of Holy Light, incinerated or otherwise bound by supernatural means.

Can they sleep? How?

We know for a fact that Undead never tire. It's really what made the Lich King's armies so feared, as they could work day and night, single-mindedly without stopping for breathers. Therefore, they shouldn't need sleep - or be able to sleep. Why give them such a detrimental attribute, if you're in essence just building an army by raising Undead? Napping soldiers = dead soldiers.

Answer me these, dear CoTH, for I am stumped. /shrug. I can't figure this one out.

[BountyHunter]

Can they be knocked unconscious? How?

There are abilities which cause Undead to become 'Unconscious', meaning, they are rendered immobile and are more or less lacking consciousness for a small period of time. Also, if severe physical damage is caused, an Undead's willpower might lessen to the extent that they can possibly simply lose consciousness.

Can they sleep? How?

Closing their eyes and more or less pretending to sleep. Some Undead still alike to hang onto the strings of their former life so it isn't impossible for some to still wish to sleep, maybe trying to reach out and grasp at a dream or two if possible.

[Binkleheimer]

Or it's a joke by Blizzard.
Especially considering what book that bit came from.
You know, the one talking about a dk getting put down for an innapropiate name, by Scourge standards.
The same one that says your character needs more cowbell.
It's all about context.

[Grakor456]

Can they be knocked unconscious? How?

We know for a fact that Undead don't have a working metabolism, thus, no real working nerves - they're really animated corpses with a spirit that puppets them, so you shouldn't be able to stop them unless you dismantle them. And even so, I would suspect an undead head to keep chattering at you. Unless blasted by an amount of Holy Light, incinerated or otherwise bound by supernatural means.

Undead, particularly Forsaken and DKs, still require their brains. Also, in WoW Undead are not immune to stuns, dazes, disorients, or other similar effects of a physical nature, so we can assume that because they still need their brains, that can get messed with.

The general way I interpret undead "unconsciousness" is immobility. If I'm playing Balgarn and he gets knocked to 0 HP in a non-lethal event, he simply goes immobile and his body shuts down. Either way, attempting to look at this too scientifically is going to fail, because undead are not scientific creations.

Can they sleep? How?

We know for a fact that Undead never tire. It's really what made the Lich King's armies so feared, as they could work day and night, single-mindedly without stopping for breathers. Therefore, they shouldn't need sleep - or be able to sleep. Why give them such a detrimental attribute, if you're in essence just building an army by raising Undead? Napping soldiers = dead soldiers.

Remember, Forsaken and DKs still need their brains (we know this because Forsaken "death" by old age is brain rot.) Their bodies may not ever tire, but nothing says their minds do not. They may, or may not, require a certain amount of rest, depending on how one chooses to interpret Forsaken lore. Plus, nothing stops them from being lazy and pretending.

Also, see Binkle's post.

[hiddengecko]

Forsaken aren't really like Death Knights, at all. Forsaken are cheap, long-dead disease-manufactured, nearly-mindless zombies who had their minds and souls returned. They aren't immortal, aren't meant to last, and fall apart quickly.

Death Knights are advanced. They were raised from fresh and intact corpses, or just -warm bodies,- and were done individually with powerful magic that appears to fully reanimate them. They don't rot; they are immortal. The ability to sleep is implied--I suspect it's there regardless of them being living or dead, personally--by the book.

You ought not to just filter out lore because "Well, it is silly because it does not agree with my preconceptions, and some books are silly sometimes."

[flammos200]

Forsaken aren't really like Death Knights, at all. Forsaken are cheap, long-dead disease-manufactured, nearly-mindless zombies who had their minds and souls returned. They aren't immortal, aren't meant to last, and fall apart quickly.

Death Knights are advanced. They were raised from fresh and intact corpses, or just -warm bodies,- and were done individually with powerful magic that appears to fully reanimate them. They don't rot; they are immortal. The ability to sleep is implied--I suspect it's there regardless of them being living or dead, personally--by the book.

You ought not to just filter out lore because "Well, it is silly because it does not agree with my preconceptions, and some books are silly sometimes."

...Quite. I've taken the liberty to bold that little caveat. While that is perfectly true, I wonder at why it is so. Additionally, Forsaken are immortal in body - their bodies won't decay, but their minds -will- wither and rot, leaving them mindless.

Can they be knocked unconscious? How?

There are abilities which cause Undead to become 'Unconscious', meaning, they are rendered immobile and are more or less lacking consciousness for a small period of time. Also, if severe physical damage is caused, an Undead's willpower might lessen to the extent that they can possibly simply lose consciousness.

Can they sleep? How?

Closing their eyes and more or less pretending to sleep. Some Undead still alike to hang onto the strings of their former life so it isn't impossible for some to still wish to sleep, maybe trying to reach out and grasp at a dream or two if possible.

Hmm. See, this brings up -extremely- interesting points of view. I would hazard to say that an Undead's consciousness -is- their life. At least, so long as they are tied to a physical body and not an Ascended being.

...I doubt undead heal naturally, as dead cells cannot produce living cells to repair their forms, therefore, they literally should not be able to regain consciousness once they've lost it. Unless treated with an amount of healing magic.

Now, why would they lose consciousness under severe damage? Why would their willpower lessen? They can't feel pain, so that's not distracting them from the single-minded goal of disemboweling their enemies... See: Skeletons, Frost Wyrms, Bone Giants.

As for mimicking sleep, yeah, that's true. We know for a fact that a number of Forsaken cling dearly to what they used to be in life, hence why some practice Light. But they wouldn't -really- be sleeping, would they? Just faking it, I mean...

Can they be knocked unconscious? How?

We know for a fact that Undead don't have a working metabolism, thus, no real working nerves - they're really animated corpses with a spirit that puppets them, so you shouldn't be able to stop them unless you dismantle them. And even so, I would suspect an undead head to keep chattering at you. Unless blasted by an amount of Holy Light, incinerated or otherwise bound by supernatural means.

Undead, particularly Forsaken and DKs, still require their brains. Also, in WoW Undead are not immune to stuns, dazes, disorients, or other similar effects of a physical nature, so we can assume that because they still need their brains, that can get messed with.

The general way I interpret undead "unconsciousness" is immobility. If I'm playing Balgarn and he gets knocked to 0 HP in a non-lethal event, he simply goes immobile and his body shuts down. Either way, attempting to look at this too scientifically is going to fail, because undead are not scientific creations.

Can they sleep? How?

We know for a fact that Undead never tire. It's really what made the Lich King's armies so feared, as they could work day and night, single-mindedly without stopping for breathers. Therefore, they shouldn't need sleep - or be able to sleep. Why give them such a detrimental attribute, if you're in essence just building an army by raising Undead? Napping soldiers = dead soldiers.

Remember, Forsaken and DKs still need their brains (we know this because Forsaken "death" by old age is brain rot.) Their bodies may not ever tire, but nothing says their minds do not. They may, or may not, require a certain amount of rest, depending on how one chooses to interpret Forsaken lore. Plus, nothing stops them from being lazy and pretending.

Also, see Binkle's post.

...Well, I could say that them still not being immune to such would be mere game mechanics - a question of balance, but... Forsaken can surely be as skeletal as Skeletons, Bone Giants, Liches, Frost Wyrms, etc. no? I recall a couple of our own server DKs getting shot in the head and surviving, or cleaved in the face with an Abomination's Cleaver...

As for the latter, I suppose it would make sense if one's memory and workload were limited to the brain specifically, since our little bio-computer can only work so fast and store so much information, but what of Forsaken that've Ascended, or bone wraiths/giants, Abominations, Skeletons and the like? They obviously don't use their brains...

Also, is there any specific mention as to the fact that Death Knights use their brains? Just curious.

Furthermore, an Undead being fully immobilized -does- make perfect sense, due to how otherwise they would just keep whacking away at you. Even more so if holy magic is at play. Now, how one does that is another matter altogether - I suspect that if you enchained them, they'd struggle, and if you buried them, they'd try to dig their way out.

Thanks for the answers thus far. They've been enlightening.

One more question: To what degree is an undead being - therefore not using their muscles to power their movements - physically stronger than the average mortal?

[LostStranger]

I will make a quick note here that I did not mean to be abrasive as I suspect in hindsight that I may be coming across as.

Undead, particularly Forsaken and DKs, still require their brains. Also, in WoW Undead are not immune to stuns, dazes, disorients, or other similar effects of a physical nature, so we can assume that because they still need their brains, that can get messed with.

This is somewhat beside the point, if not entirely, but...

I personally and staunchly believe that undead do not have functional cerebral faculties, and that they have no need of said faculties.

Do you know what happens to the typical human brain, hardly any time after its body dies?

Forsaken do exhibit signs of decay (and though this is from a decanonized source, they are said to be slowly rotting), and "brain rot" would've annihilated the race by now if it was a literal effect.

Falling into mindlessness (also explained by that decanonized source) has been described as succumbing to the iron heel of the Lich King once again.

...If true, this may no longer be applicable, given the current status of said Lich King, which in turn may mean a technical immortality for Forsaken as well.

I'm not really sure where the idea of "brain rot" derives from, if anyone could share a source.

I imagine I'd be less opposed to its existence if I were sit down and explained to how it wasn't out-of-the-blue fanon.

[Rigley]

I will make a quick note here that I did not mean to be abrasive as I suspect in hindsight that I may be coming across as.

Undead, particularly Forsaken and DKs, still require their brains. Also, in WoW Undead are not immune to stuns, dazes, disorients, or other similar effects of a physical nature, so we can assume that because they still need their brains, that can get messed with.

This is somewhat beside the point, if not entirely, but...

I personally and staunchly believe that undead do not have functional cerebral faculties, and that they have no need of said faculties.

Do you know what happens to the typical human brain, hardly any time after its body dies?

Forsaken do exhibit signs of decay (and though this is from a decanonized source, they are said to be slowly rotting), and "brain rot" would've annihilated the race by now if it was a literal effect.

Falling into mindlessness (also explained by that decanonized source) has been described as succumbing to the iron heel of the Lich King once again.

...If true, this may no longer be applicable, given the current status of said Lich King, which in turn may mean a technical immortality for Forsaken as well.

I'm not really sure where the idea of "brain rot" derives from, if anyone could share a source.

I imagine I'd be less opposed to its existence if I were sit down and explained to how it wasn't out-of-the-blue fanon.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Life_spans#cite_note-2

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Chill_of_Death

These are two tidbits that were always referenced regarding the whole 'brain rot' bit. I'm not sure if the first holds up by this point, though, but if you're interested into what -was- the reasoning, there y'go.

[Duraza]

In regards to the state of mindlessness Forsaken fall into, I've always regarded it as magically sourced. They fall back under the Lich King's will. The Lich King's will isn't necessarily programed into their brains but may somehow be attached to the magic that has risen them to begin with. I don't see how a certain state of 'rottenness' should evoke a fall into mindlessness because firstly, certain Forsaken are risen more preserved than others so the wear of their bodies could reach different places. Secondly, a Necromancer is capable of restoring a Forsaken to their bodily state directly after being risen. If it were a bodily problem Undercity would have enough Necromancers that it would never cause a problem.

Honestly, I've always wondered why anyone brings the brain into these arguments to begin with. It has no function, just like the Forsaken heart, lungs, stomach, etc. None of those serve a function so why is it logical at all to attribute function to the brain?

The answer I've seen before: Well certain things like 'memory' may be stored in the brain as they might cling to familiar places. But that is still silly. 'Life' does not cling to the Forsaken heart because their life does not work in the same way. And yes, sight is still attached to the eyes but that may not necessarily do with lore so much as 'we have a bunch of human beings playing the game and how odd would it be if Forsaken saw through their hands or some other such nonsense?' And there are Forsaken who are cannibals but the ability to process flesh as 'energy' is not attached to the stomach (but rather most likely some magical process unexplained).

What I wonder is why no one bothers to take into account 'spirit.' After all, the Forsaken still have a soul. Spirits still seem to have memory, etc and could serve all the functions we try to attribute to the brain. I mean honestly, how does a pile of dead cells not only hold old memories but continues to record new memories and experiences? A pile of dead cells is nothing but dead cells in every other situation. And why would the Lich King put anything in a Forsaken's mind? In his design, they didn't need one, they were bound to his will. However, in his design they did have eyes in their sockets and hearts that no longer were beating. When the Forsaken gained freedom they didn't necessarily change anything of the Lich King's design (like give themselves 'functioning' brains). Rather, they exerted some sort of 'will' which I rather attribute to a function of soul than dead cells.

In terms of Forsaken being dazed, etc I agree that I think its most likely just game mechanics trying to be fair and we all know game mechanics sometimes don't make sense in terms of Rp. I mean, we can also disorient, daze, etc Scourge NPCs and how we would have somehow been disorienting the Lich King's own will would escape me.

So... tl;dr version. Forsaken using their brains is illogical in my opinion.

[BountyHunter]

One more question: To what degree is an undead being - therefore not using their muscles to power their movements - physically stronger than the average mortal?

This depends on the source of their undeath it seems. I would believe that Forsaken are weaker, physically, than most mortals due to the amount of rot they have sustained and the fact they are of lower quality than Death Knights. They are, however, more agile and resistant to pain to make up for it.

Death Knights, on the other hand, seem to be stronger than your average mortal (See: [spell]Abomination's Might[/spell]) due to the runic/shadow magic pumping through their body. This would explain how someone who was potentially a librarian before they died could become a Death Knight.

[LostStranger]

http://www.wowpedia.org/Life_spans#cite_note-2

http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Chill_of_Death

These are two tidbits that were always referenced regarding the whole 'brain rot' bit. I'm not sure if the first holds up by this point, though, but if you're interested into what -was- the reasoning, there y'go.

But where does "brain rot" originate from? This reinforces what I said about the Scourge's profane control, but nothing about that business of braaaiiins being more than a dietary preference.

This depends on the source of their undeath it seems. I would believe that Forsaken are weaker, physically, than most mortals due to the amount of rot they have sustained and the fact they are of lower quality than Death Knights. They are, however, more agile and resistant to pain to make up for it.

Again, decanonization, but the opposite was considered true in the d20.

The logic was that the majority of Forsaken are simply intelligent zombies, right? ...Would you consider a zombie stronger, but more clumsy, than the original creature it was created through?

[Grakor456]

A lot of it depends on interpretation. "Brain rot" is never specifically referenced, so it probably is fanon, though it's fanon I tend to find logical. Memory is far more of a 'brain' thing than a 'spirit' thing.

However, even if Forsaken don't require their physical brains for things, that doesn't mean they can't get stunned/gazed/knocked unconscious. A lot when it comes to stuns/dazes is knocking someone silly and disorienting their perceptions, and undeath doesn't necessarily grant immunity to that.

Again, looking at undead too scientifically is going to fail. They're not scientific creatures.

[Alykia]

I think its more of that they -can- sleep/rest because its just the mind going into a sort of deep meditative state, amoungst other things.

They just dont -need- to sleep.

[Kira13]

A lot of it depends on interpretation. "Brain rot" is never specifically referenced, so it probably is fanon, though it's fanon I tend to find logical. Memory is far more of a 'brain' thing than a 'spirit' thing.

One of the first things my Claynt learned in his beginning as a Necromancer was that souls, otherwise knows as spirits, "remember" the last thing they have done. This would only mean that Forsaken, even if they broke free of the Lich King´s will, have many more memories from their life than the rat that Claynt´s teacher used.

Sorry if I´m rambling, but I´m pretty tired.

---

I think its more of that they -can- sleep/rest because its just the mind going into a sort of deep meditative state, amoungst other things.

They just dont -need- to sleep.

Basically yes, Forsaken, and ultimately undead, do not -need- to sleep, eat, breath or other such things. Some Forsaken -want- to do these, but they only can do them by -remembering- them. Sleep doesn´t exist, food has no taste, air has no meaning, there are no smells. About sounds, I think the ear, if not destroyed, still hears them, due to how sounds work: sound waves beating on the inner ear. (or something. I know it´s about the soundwaves making it, but.. meh; as I said, too tired)

[LostStranger]

However, even if Forsaken don't require their physical brains for things, that doesn't mean they can't get stunned/gazed/knocked unconscious. A lot when it comes to stuns/dazes is knocking someone silly and disorienting their perceptions, and undeath doesn't necessarily grant immunity to that.

If it can think, it can probably also not think, and cognitive vertigo doesn't have much to do in how it goes about thinking, I think.