Possibilities and Variants

[Grakor456]

So, with the restart looming (perhaps closer than some may think, I'll hopefully make an official announcement soon, barring complications) and the imminent destruction of the prestige system at hand, I think it's time to put forth the ideas of what we are thinking will be possibilities for post-restart, as in what we may or may not be doing, and putting up a poll to gauge interest in one thing or another.

So, here's a quick summation of what we're intending, right now:

Prestige Titles

I know a lot of people are going to hate the dreaded wand of the retcon, though in some cases it will be inevitable as a result of the scaling back of the power of the titles. While we haven't drafted an official list, there's essentially four categories of prestiges, in my mind:

X, but MORE! prestiges: Archdruid, Archmage, High Divinist, etc. Prestiges that are just a flat improvement to a base class by their very nature. These are getting nixed entirely.

Custom Model prestiges: Burning Legionnaire, Diabolist, etc. Prestiges whose main draw is the change in character model. These will most likely be handled through custom model submissions in the future. As a note, we'll be much more reserved when it comes to fel mutations in the future, mostly to better keep with the lore and to ensure that we don't get really unusual character model switches.

Redundant prestiges: Spiritwalker, Whisper Blade, Myrmidon, etc. Prestiges whose iconic abilities are mostly already incorporated within the base classes of WoW without much branching out, but whose titles don't necessarily imply greater power over their peers. These most likely will simply be freely rollable, regardless of what system (or not) we put into place, as they're really just fancy names for the base classes that already exist.

Hybrid or Unique prestiges: Demon Hunter, Priestess of the Moon, etc. Prestiges that aren't redundant with the base classes, often themselves being multi-class hybrids or tacking on strange or unique abilities to existing classes. These are the ones that are mostly in question, here.

The Variant System

So, an idea has been kicked around the GM boards for another system. A system that would allow people to play characters outside of the norm of the base classes, but without the baggage that every iteration of the prestige system carried with it. Any new system would have to fill certain goals:

1. Eliminate roll bonuses. As roll bonuses can often be seen as a way to muscle people out of RP, we deemed them not a good idea. This is one of the reasons for the rename from "Prestige", as we don't want people to think of variants as better, just different.

2. Eliminate full character skill-set swaps. I am not a fan of base classes that are not real base classes.

3. Provide a means of customizing or providing character progression for characters in a way that the rigid, inflexible prestige systems of the past could not do. All prestige systems were strapped to rigid class titles, and as a result did little for making an individual character *special.* In addition, this poses the other reason for the rename from "prestige", as I want to move away from the titles present in the d20.

4. Despite #3, also provide a means to restrict the number of people going for rigid class titles that are nonetheless popular. In particular, I am looking at things like Demon Hunter.

5. Provide a system that encourages character development, as opposed to a system that encourages power grabbing.

This is harder than it sounds.

The idea, therefore, is to create a more free-form system. An application would be someone putting forth the idea of what they want their character to do. To illustrate the idea, I think it's best to show through example, so I'll use my character Thragash.

Let's say I want to have Thragash be a warrior similar to the old Bone Crusher prestige, while also possessing magic runes tattooed to his body that makes him stronger. This gives me a firm basis of where I want to take the character, and provides the spark of what would make Thragash different enough to require an application: he has magic runes, even if they're a completely passive thing. So, with that idea put forth, I then decide on what weaknesses I think Thragash should have to accompany these strengths, in order to balance the variant out. Some of these are obvious: because Thragash is so big and hulking, he's slow and unstealthy. Also, he eats a ton. Thragash may physically be a beast, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a great fighter, as he'll be slow and not necessarily skilled. To further balance him out, we'll say that he's only good at the use of fist weapons and leather armor.

So, here's an example of what the application might be (the form may also require more information, such as first storyline post, etc., but this should give an idea):

Spoiler:

Character: Thragash
Class: Warrior

Desired Title: None
Variant Description: Thragash went through a long trial and training to acquire runes that now adorn his body. These runes provide him with additional physical strength, and combine with his gluttonous appetite and intense work-out routine to make him a giant, living wall of orcish muscle that focuses on fighting with his body itself. Unfortunately, the result has also left him rather slow and with his own set of weaknesses.

Strengths:
Great Strength - Thragash's sheer muscular size, in addition to the runes on his body, make him very strong and capable of defeating many others in tests of sheer physical might.
Toughness - Thragash's runes also provide him with tougher skin, allowing him to fight in light armor and skill be decently protected.
Grappler - Focusing almost entirely on unarmed combat, Thragash is an expert at grapples and submission holds. As a result, he's able to grapple, pin, or put a hold on something that others may find too large or too strong to do so to.

Weaknesses:
Brawler - Due to his training being highly specialized, Thragash is only skilled in the use of unarmed attacks and fist weapons, and is greatly hampered whenever wearing anything heavier than leather armor.
Bulky - The sheer size of his musculature causes Thragash to be both slow and easy to hit. As a result, he has a difficult time dodging attacks, and instead relies on parrying or tanking through them.
Loud - Due to his sheer size and lack of coordination, Thragash is very easy to spot and is one of the least stealthy people you'll ever meet.
Hungry - With his high metabolism, Thragash is always eating. He requires nearly double the amount of food to sustain himself as another in order to be comfortable, and if he goes without enough food for more than a day, he becomes both irrational and more prone to falling into a blood rage when angered.

(Note: This isn't necessarily the direction I'll take Thragash post-restart, it's just an example.)

Now, this system comes with its own problems. For one, people have been making variations without the prestige system for a long time...battle-mages come to mind immediately. For two, what is the line of a variation that is fine to roll without an application, and what is not and requires effort put into?

Likely, this system would also require effort put into it, though not as much, as the result isn't quite as rewarding. There would likely be multiple avenues to pursue, either through forum posts or the running of in-game events.

The line that we have decided is probably the best, as far as what would require an application and what would not, would be the line when it comes to a character learning abilities noticably atypical to their class. Thragash above, for example, has magic runes on his person. A mage who wanted to be able to fight well with a sword would require one. A priest who also wants to be good with a bow. A mage who wanted to dabble in necromancy at the cost of one of his other schools of magic. So on, so forth.

The Other Option

The other option is no system at all. While this seems confining, it really isn't as confining as it sounds, as we intend (rather, at least I intend) on being a little more lax with what normal characters are able to do. This is a roleplaying server and a little bit of creativity should be encouraged, as long as that creativity doesn't broach into the realm of the silly or completely shatter WoW's class dynamics.

The biggest loss here is essentially just that we wouldn't be letting people play Demon Hunters again, and other of the past titles that are noticeably problematic if seen in large numbers and don't fit with the base classes well.

This does also mean, however, that some of the things that we'd more closely restrict in the above system likely wouldn't be as restricted if we had nothing at all.

I've rambled too much right now. Let the comments and votes come.

[Delta]

Pragmatically speaking, a system would allow you to keep an eye on things.

[Jonoth]

I voted for no system. I liked the Prestige System, and while I would under most circumstances like the idea of the proposed variants, I see it ending up the same way as the Prestige System. Heck, it sounds almost exactly like the prestige system save for a couple restrictions that could just be added to the current system. I am also assuming things that are plausible without a system are things like witch doctors, assassins, and gladiators that have no real need for unique abilities and are more based on profession.

[flammos200]

As described above, the Variant system sounds pretty much like a Prestige system. As such, I voted for no system at all.

I know a couple of people've seen this 'fore, but this is what I think should happen.

Spoiler:

~Firstly, I begin by recognizing that certain Classes have roles in their societies which imply a certain degree of political power. People like Farseers, Archmagi, High Divinists, Wardens, Priestesses of the Moon and such. My suggestion is that, like anything else with a certain degree of political power, they be turned into Special Profiles, kind of like Nobility and Ranking Military Personnel. Having had two Special Profiles thus far- Well, three if one includes the Runemaster - I've come to believe that that particular system is an effective way to scrutinize these politically-empowered characters.

To elaborate upon the previous point - I would hazard to say that not much deviation from one's base class need happen. Shamans can already summon spirits and use chain lightning and so forth, just like a Farseer. The Archmagi represented in-game are not really more powerful than the Magi we play, nor do they really gain anything extra as far as abilities go, thus I would believe them a mere rank among the Kirin Tor, a position in an office, rather than a testament to magical might.

High Divinists seem to be the equivalent of Archmagi, only in places like the Church of Light, or the Forgotten Shadow or the Temple of the Moon and so on. Just a title, a position, just like a noble or ranking military person. Wardens are a tricky group - but even they can be easily represented by rogues, warriors and hunters. I mean, Rogues have their Fan of Knives, Warriors their Shattering Throw, and Hunters? Volley.

And Priestesses of the Moon, I've always believed mere members of the Sisterhood of Elune - the clergy of the Kaldorei. Therefore, they need no further abilities than the average female Night Elf priest. Shadow Ascendants? Ranking Shadow Priests in the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow that're just Shadowformed all the time. Archdruids? High-ranking Druids in the Cenarion Circle.

Mountain Kings? Easy: Warrior-Thanes of Ironforge, of the Fury specialization. The 'Avatar' ability that they have is something common to most Dwarves: Stone Form! It's a political position. Even Dragonsworn can be accounted for by in-game paraphenalia. Just have a character be aligned with Wyrmrest, and you can buy a Red Drake from the Wyrmrest vendor with Exalted rep and a little under two thousand gold. You don't -need- some weird artifact that does who-knows-what or some dragon ability to represent the class. Get exalted with the Brood of Nozdromu/Scale of the Sands/Keepers of Time/Wyrmrest!

~Moving on, the vast majority of Prestiges can already be represented by in-game abilities - and as such should be considered variants, Classes which people should be able to start as right off the bat. Spirit Champion/Battle Shaman/Spiritwalker? All doable by the Shaman class. Fel, Shamans on CoTH gain the Spirit Walk ability from their Feral Spirits. And an Enhancement Shaman is quite adept at delivering melee blows, so... Everything is there, in-game.

Templars? Well, just look at the Paladin skill trees. Shield of the Templar, Holy Shock, Divine Storm, and even Avenging Wrath,(And, in Cataclysm, Guardian of Ancient Kings). We can do those things already. It's not that hard to use one's imagination for whatever's missing.

Blademasters? Orc Arms Warriors. Berserkers? Fury Warriors(Berserker rage and so on are abilities that hint to this quite obviously). Elven Rangers? Elven hunters. Even the Elven Rangers' ability to summon animals can be accounted for with Snake Traps and Call Stabled Pet, and in Cataclysm, they get Camouflage too, accounting for the Elven Rangers' stealth skills. Even Woodland Stride can be accounted for with the Aspect of the Cheetah. We have all the tools. We'd just be calling ourselves differently.

Same for Wilderness Stalkers and Beastmasters. If one's so attached to the image of the Beastmaster with horns, claws and fangs, then why not have the character purposefully use claw-like fist weapons(Since Hunters can Dual Wield fist weapons), or wear a pair of horns, to get into the mindset of an animal and grow closer to their animal companions in mentality by adopting such additions to their wardrobe?

Steamwarriors? Engineers. Tinkers? Same thing. Techno-magi? Magi with the Engineering profession. Hell, Engineers can fold space and create wormholes, dimensional rippers and teleporters, shoot lightning and fire and so on. What's to stop a mage from being good with both the Arcane and with technology? They don't really get any special standing in society, either.

Assassins/Infiltrators/Spymasters/whatever other rogue archetype name you know and like? Members of Ravenholdt/The Assassins' League. Just your normal Rogue, with a different name, or specialized in the Assassination talent tree(If Assassins), or Subtlety if we're thinking Infiltrators and Spymasters. You're given so many incredible factions in Lore, and Ravenholdt is one of the most underused. I know I'd like to see some Ravenholdt RP - but now I'm drifting off-track. Back to Prestiges!

Sisters of Steel and Dwarven Avatars? Stone-form! Lightslayers? Forsaken Rogues aligned with the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow. People really underestimate the 'Association(s)' field in Profiles. Moving on, Dark Rangers? Survival-specced Forsaken Hunters(...or some equivalent, since we don't have Forsaken Hunters...) . Stings are DoTs just like Dark Ranger curses, and Survival Hunters can fire Black Arrows. Hunters also gain access to the Silencing Shot - and silence was an ability for which Dark Rangers were known.

Ley Walkers/Inscribers(Yes, I am bunching them together)? Magi with the Inscription Profession. Mainly for Scrolls of Recall(Ley Walking anyone?), glyphs and such(Ley Healing = Evocation Glyph).

Savagekin? Feral Druids. Pyremasters? Elemental Shamans, that mainly use Fire. Gladiators? Gladiators! Anyone can fight in an arena for cash. Shadow-Hunters? Loa-faithful Hunters, or perhaps Priests or Shamans to the Loa! Primals? Savage people. Any people! So long as they don't use magic. Even Hunters get 'The Beast Within' which makes them fly into a savage primal rage in which nothing can stop them unless they are killed.

Gunslingers? Survival Hunters that use guns. They have black arrows, explosive arrows, sniper training, etc. etc. Blood Magi? Either Destruction Warlocks or Fire Magi. Destruction Warlocks make more sense, though, since Blood Magi use Fel, can Banish and Drain Life/mana, but Magi have Flamestrike. Spellbreakers? Blood Elven warriors, when we get them(In Cataclysm). Warriors are pretty good against casters, provided they remember the good old Spell Reflection. Or fel, even Magi could fit the bill if they learned how to use a sword. Also: Battlemagi can be just magi that know how to use a sword.

Potion Docs/Dark Apothecaries: Alchemists, of the (Usually) Troll and Forsaken variety, the latter easily being associated with the Royal Apothecary Society. Witch Doctors? Troll Shaman!

Techslayer: Engineer that fights other Engineers. Subversive: Trap-using Hunter - I know I'd like to see more Hunters use traps. I mean, really, when you can turn a zone into a snowfield, I don't see why you wouldn't use it to slow down the opposition. Demon Hunters? Hunters with glaives. Or Rogues with the Cursed Vision and Warglaives. Or fel, even Warlocks - since they can Sense demons, Metamorphosis, banish demons and so on.

Runemasters? Unarmed brawlers with Inscription. Brewmasters? Unarmed brawlers with a Fire Eater's guide and Alchemy(For drinks with epic effects!). Bone Crushers? Warriors. No doubt about it.

And so forth.

[Kaghuros]

Edit: I realize that we already have a system for approving variants: Special profiles. So all that might be needed for a variant in a free-form system is a supplemental sheet about what the class is, what their abilities and other stuff might be, and how your character is getting or has gotten to where they are.


I'm not sure what the "right kind" of restriction is, but there has to be a way for the GM team to figure out who is going after what title and who has one already. I quite like the way that application looks, and I think it could be integrated into the common profile system quite well with only a few changes on the wiki entry when a character is approved.

Then again, why does a character have to have extra weaknesses to take an alternate class? I mean, I like that it's listed there, but every other character should have their own strengths and weaknesses too.

[Kira13]

I voted for the Variant System, basically because I stil trust that we can make the prestige classes work, and because making custom prestiges like that (if you wish to call them that) is really better than having predefined prestiges. From what I understood, this Variant System allows players to make their own 'prestige classes', based on their character's preferance as a class. A thing of which I fully approve of.

Edit:

Spoiler:

I received my very first like. Hur hur. :3

[Grakor456]

Edit: I realize that we already have a system for approving variants: Special profiles. So all that might be needed for a variant in a free-form system is a supplemental sheet about what the class is, what their abilities and other stuff might be, and how your character is getting or has gotten to where they are.


I'm not sure what the "right kind" of restriction is, but there has to be a way for the GM team to figure out who is going after what title and who has one already. I quite like the way that application looks, and I think it could be integrated into the common profile system quite well with only a few changes on the wiki entry when a character is approved.

Then again, why does a character have to have extra weaknesses to take an alternate class? I mean, I like that it's listed there, but every other character should have their own strengths and weaknesses too.

Keep in mind, the system was designed as a way to help further character *development*, as opposed to rolling characters straight off the bat with whatever powers that you want. People have said that the main point of the prestige system was the development as opposed to the power, so the Variant System was intended to provide the benefits of the prestige system without any of the problems that plagued the prestige system.

Also, if a character is getting benefits in some way, then he needs accompanying weaknesses for the sake of balance. It's a means of ensuring that the problem of prestiges doesn't happen again, where a character becomes simply better than his peers because he went through a system.

Note: please do not take this as me championing the variant system. I am truly indifferent to the idea, as I am indifferent to the idea of having no system at all. I am simply clarifying the intent behind the decisions that were made with the concept.

[Stormgald]

I agree, Grakor.

I have played a few times on the "Freedom" RP server and they seem to use a character development system. They don't do profiles and such. I've always liked that idea.

I will say, though. That Freedom in no way compares to CotH. Everyone there seems very immature. I don't easily annoy, but when someone uses profanity excessively for seemingly no reason at all. It drives me up a wall. Also, a large percentage of the player base was treating me like garbage because I play on CotH.

What I'm getting at is CotH is mature. We should be able to figure this out.

[Kira13]

We should be able to figure this out.

[Duraza]

Well, I appreciate the quickness of the team to provide some sort of alternative for the prestige system.

Now, I'm going to try and make this short... I'm just a little curious about something. It seems as if roll bonuses are simply replaced with unique skills. I mean, take a look at the situations.

'Ugg, he's showing off his +15 roll bonus and his fancy powers and its totally ruining my rp!'

'Ugg, he's showing off his special skills and spamming those same emotes cause he thinks they are sooo cool. Its totally ruining my rp!'

It has been mentioned before. When someone tries to be creative with their skills and do something not necessarily in the skill books... People rage. I can easily see a sudden raging over people replacing +15 bonuses with 'my more awesome and cool fireball.' Maybe I just lack faith or whatever in the player base. But honestly, if people made such a big deal over guys making GMI conversations about 'their awesome new powers' what makes a system that purely grants 'awesome new powers' any different...?

And no, I'm not trying to support any system here... I just don't get how this fixes the problems with players wanting power. I'd hate to see a system get favored for the same problems to arise -again- (And perhaps just a smidgen of me can't help but play Devil's Advocate).

[PvtFrog]

Tapping on a phone is...hard to say the least so I'll keep this short and sweet. I, for one, don't particularly care for a prestige/variant system. Reason for this is because...well, character development can be done without an increase in power in my opinion. All in all, I'm just happy with what I have and don't really see a need for a new system, if a system at all.

[Rigley]

A good example would be using Thragash's sample up there.

Instead of saying 'I am a bonecrusher and can easily beat this footman down with my fists', the scenario would be 'I am an orc and I can fight toe-to-toe with this footman with my fists'.

Instead of 'I don't have a weapon and will be at a disadvantage to an armed and plate-wearing soldier'.

If that makes sense. That was basically my idea of it.

[Evaszion]

I am honestly going to say I picked free-form.

Now here's my why!

~~For one, I've always seen "prestiges" as a nuisance. As Duraza said before me, people tend to end up with the most common excuse when someone play a prestige. Roll Bonuses and Special Skills.

~~Secondly, I think what they should be is what they are: A different class(surprise, surprise) with different abilities than the classes we have now.

Let's take my favorite classes here
Dark Ranger vs. Hunter
The Dark Ranger is, roughly, a Hunter... that died, and kept in tune with her bow and nature, except twisted it. She is a Ranger, yes, but she has also gained a new ability from Undeath... Necromancy. She can resurrect about two to five skeletal soldiers that are weak and will quite possibly fall to a pile after too long.

The Hunter is in tune with nature and a bow(). Instead of summoning via Necromancy, she uses her connection with nature to help tame beasts as a promising ally.

I understand I didn't cover every little bit of lore on each.

Warden vs. Rogue/Hunter/Warrior
The Warden is pretty much a Shamagadin in a sense. A Warden compromises of light abilities from Hunters(Tracking Skills), Rogues,(Stealth-Cat Burglar type, agility, and fan of knives), and Warriors(Plate mail, strength, stamina, and battle skills). She is an amazing tracker, a, if I may, ninja, and a strong, cold-hearted(usually), and emotionless(usually) woman who just wants the damn job done.

The Rogue can be three things(mainly): the stealthy assassin, the mugger in the alley, or like that cool jumpsuit kid in Naruto! They typically use knives, getaway tricks(smoke bombs, ropes, chains, more ropes, duct tape, more chains)

The Hunter, as said above, is a tracker, in tune with nature, and can very well be a sniper/assassin.

The Warrior is strong, usually protective, and ready to RAGE when need be. Everyone wants to be a warrior. They can wear heavy armor, do long, long, long marches, and be pretty awesome. Versatile in weapons, too.



Pretty ramble-like, but that's my view on the whole prestige system. Prestiges are pretty much base classes, if you will, with different abilities. /shrug

[Duraza]

A good example would be using Thragash's sample up there.

Instead of saying 'I am a bonecrusher and can easily beat this footman down with my fists', the scenario would be 'I am an orc and I can fight toe-to-toe with this footman with my fists'.

Instead of 'I don't have a weapon and will be at a disadvantage to an armed and plate-wearing soldier'.

If that makes sense. That was basically my idea of it.

And I understand where you're going with this but what if I am an orc who uses his fists and I'm not in this system. Does that therefore mean I am at a disadvantage to the plate-wearing soldier?

And yes, it can mean that the two orcs can still fight equally but I'm not talking about a character's power/ability. I'm talking about the ability for players to whine about any disadvantage they are given in reference to another player gaining an advantage. I tried avoiding putting it so... bluntly earlier but that's the truth of my opinion. This doesn't stop that whining.

It's easily fixed though. If there are policing rules to be enforced combined with a simple 'no whining, bring screenshots' sorta deal.

Edit: That sounded a bit rude. I don't mean to say all players are whining as I'm sure there are those who abused prestiges as well and they are just as much in the wrong. Apologies before anyone takes that the wrong way.

[Terant]

I voted for variants. No system is perfect, but I think this variant one is our best bet at the moment. I think Demon Hunters and other such things are cool, and I would prefer not to see them gone.

This system allows people to make more unique characters more easily (a good thing), but forces them to gain any kind of "Prestige," whether it be combat skill or political clout, in-game through role-play with others. This generates far more RP than having to make a giant thread, AND it is far more rewarding in the end (also a good thing).

Not every character is equal combat-wise, but it is not the staff's job to regulate that. It's up to the players involved in the combat to do it their own way. Simplest solution: Use common sense and agree to lose sometimes. One of my first RP experiences on CotH was when Terant was a n00b Blood Knight Initiate on a mission to Orgrimmar. He ended up getting his arse kicked in single combat because, well... It's a Blood Elf Paladin wrestling against an Orc Warrior (Kaghuros!). I figured it would make more sense for Terant to lose, so I agreed to lose the fight ahead of time. While my character wasn't a "simple farmer with a pitchfork," he was clearly at a disadvantage in that particular match-up so I went with the logical option. What I guess I'm trying to say is that every IC battle situation is different, and each one requires thought to figure out the balance. Because of this, it is impossible to regulate a system that makes certain characters more powerful than others.

Paragraph 1: Variant system gives us cool stuff.

Paragraph 2: Character development in-game creates more RP than character development on the forums.

Paragraph 3: Any kind of combat bonus is stupid because every combat situation is different. Those involved should use logic.

In my opinion, the variant system is good because it allows us to do the cool things we want while allowing the rules of combat to be handled purely by the players involved in said combat.