Shadow Healing

[c0rzilla]

Holy magic doesn't heal undead, no it hurts them so bad they will die if they get enough of it. But of course some Forsaken can still use the Light if they remain firm believers and remain good, however that means they hurt themselves while casting.

When undead use or are healed by the Holy Light, does it cause them any actual damage or harm, or does it only cause them pain (in addition to the intended effects of the spell)?

Channeling the Light in any way, or receiving healing from the Light, only causes pain. Forsaken priests do not disintegrate or explode from channeling the Light for an extended period of time… though they may wish they would.

Are there long-term effects on an undead who is in regular contact with the Holy Light in a positive way?

It is difficult to say, as there are no known records of undead wielding the Holy Light before the Third War. There are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath. Unfortunately, this may be the cause of the Forsaken priesthood's increased attempts at self-destruction; regaining these senses would force the priests to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies.

From here

Lolkrilarialreadydidthis. Seems it needs to be quoted again.

[Krilari]

In before the C0r.

Muhahahaha...

[Drak]

I've been proven wrong, to the victor the spoils. And Krilari recieves the spoils. Because reasons.

[c0rzilla]

In before the C0r.

Muhahahaha...

Spoiler:

[Krilari]

* SPOILER *

[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYBZrRCCrXE[/YouTube]

[Bovel]

Established facts: Priests can use both light and shadow magic regardless of their actual faith or spec,

Say what?!
That is just plain-powerplaying-roleplay-stupid.

[Sol]

Established facts: Priests can use both light and shadow magic regardless of their actual faith or spec,

Say what?!
That is just plain-powerplaying-roleplay-stupid.

Elaborate? It's game-mechanically possible by every stretch and one of the most prominent priest NPCs currently in-game is certainly capable of it. There is a darker side to worship of Elune epitomised by her Night Warrior aspect and the vengeful spirits of the Wardens and the Watchers, and the faith of the Forgotten Shadow does, in fact, preach a careful balance between darkness and Light as an important central tenet. The Loa will harm or heal depending on which ones you call upon -and, as the Paletress example above suggests, even the most devout and good-natured Light-user can call forth shadow magic with sufficient motivation. (That said, the Argents are avowed heretics from the Church of the Holy Light and have vastly different standards of acceptability than most priests.)

[Scout]

I remember when the GM policy was that you couldn't use both Shadow and Light at the same time.

Personally, I think the philosophies and practices are completely incompatible.

[Sol]

I remember when the GM policy was that you couldn't use both Shadow and Light at the same time.

Personally, I think the philosophies and practices are completely incompatible.

Since the decanonisation of the d20 books, the GM policy seems to have steadily moved to one of 'if it can be done in-game, you can do it IC'. I know at least that that concept is more or less the central precept of the current freeform system of variant classes - if it's in your class's spellbook OOCly, you can do it, and you can explain it however you like.

As to the matter at hand, though, I would argue that it's very difficult to be wholly egoistic or wholly altruistic, and that in every personality there's a split between the two. Most, I think, are somewhere in the middle, with some edging more towards one side than another, and a handful possibly lacking one side altogether.

Why can't this apply to the Shadow and the Light? I think that yes, the prevailing opinion - especially the one pushed by the Church of the Holy Light, which decries wielders of the Shadow as heretics and witches - would suggest that you're right, the philosophies are incompatible. But some sects of the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow (which I keep coming back to because it's the Divine Shadow religion that we know of) still regard Compassion as a virtue. I don't see why a shadow priest with a tiny sliver of kindness in his heart couldn't muster up some healing for one he cares for, and likewise a holy priest could, in darker moments or at heights of anger, wield darker powers against their enemies. Given that priests cast through their force of will and the power of their souls, I think that it's reasonable to assume that calling upon positive energies as a manifestation of positive emotion and negative energies as a manifestation of negative emotion is possible.

. . . This is increasingly becoming a different debate, however interesting it might be.

[Scout]

I still prefer to subscribe to the idea that faith-based magic is based on faith, as opposed to a manifestation of nebulous intentions. Based on that, it would be infeasible to say that a priest could simultaneously practice both Shadow and Light, as that implies that you are not entirely faithful, which would render you incapable of using one or the other, or both.

Perhaps one could attempt to dedicate themselves to both, but I would imagine their skill would suffer for it. Much like one isn't as effective if they split their talent tree, if you attempt to appeal to two faiths, then your strength of will will waver. Even if you can't truly be one hundred percent dedicated to a philosophy, there is still a philosophy that you decide upon.

In reality, it's very, very rare that you would see someone that legitimately believes in two incompatible faiths, which is essentially what you're proposing here. Even if Warcraft isn't reality, the characters and personalities are based upon reality.

[Sol]

In reality, it's very, very rare that you would see someone that legitimately believes in two incompatible faiths, which is essentially what you're proposing here. Even if Warcraft isn't reality, the characters and personalities are based upon reality.

Er, I'm really not proposing anything of the sort. Apologies if I've somehow come off that way, but no, that's not at all what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is that given the fundamental nature of a divine caster, their magic being based on the personal faith, conviction and willpower of the caster, having faith in one belief system doesn't strictly preclude you from tapping into the magic used by another, especially if your belief system doesn't specifically forbid or exclude the kind of behaviour associated with it (the duality preached by the CotFS is, again, the big example). Let me clarify:

Established facts: Priests can use both light and shadow magic regardless of their actual faith or spec,

This is all I'm arguing in favour of, in response to what Bovel said above. I'm by no means suggesting that the egocentric doctrine of the Shadow faith (which is to be distinguished from the Forgotten Shadow, I'll note, which is similar but different) and the altruistic one of the Light are compatible as belief systems, given that they're extremely contradictory to one another. That's kind of the point. However, I do think that divine casters are inherently capable of wielding both kinds of magic for the reasons I attempted to outline above - although commitments of faith, belief and training differing between each priest preclude them from using both kinds to equal or similar extents. I think it'd be well within the reach of a Priest of the Holy Light to use something like Fade or Mind Soothe, just as a shadow priest could, if pushed, call upon limited healing or maybe Turn Undead.

That's all. I'm not at all advocating the kind of theological doublethink you've just described. :P

[Scout]

I personally think that priests should have to focus in one thing exclusively over the other, but the established rules and lore on CotH disagree, so I'm not going to press that. Ignoring my own personal opinions, yes, I agree that using minor spells from the other school is probably fine.

[Reigen]

To pull this back on the original topic~

I've always assumed that Shadow Healing was allowed due to how many times I've seen it. I suppose it sorta just made sense in my head that it could heal the flesh of the undead, but at the same time I see how that would be odd, as shadow is, mainly, a more destructive magic compared to the light. Granted, this is via game mechanics, but game machinists are all we really have to go on because there really just isn't all that much lore about it, and the D20 was decanoized so it's not a reliable source for this stuff. I've never personally read the D20 either, so I'm even more pushed to try to find lore source. Sadly I find nothing supporting or denying the idea when I look though wowpedia or random google.

My 'sense' tells me that it would be logical for the undead to try to twist the shadow into being able to heal their undead flesh to avoid the pains of the light. My 'can't find lore on it' is telling me that if they can't heal with the shadow via current game mechanics, then that clearly means that they cannot as blizzard did not intend the shadow to heal them.

I know as much about this as I do runemasters, which is next to nothing! *slinks back to watching others discuss*

[Rigley]

Personally I just feel that shadowmending makes sense. Well, more sense than some of the things permitted in terms of variants, namely explanations for abilities-- if we're to say a rogue can shadowstep using the Light, I still don't find it much of a stretch for a priest to be able to heal another through his shadow as some NPCs are shown to do, namely speaking for Forsaken priests.

With a culture that reviles the Light as they do it seems strange that they would still remain dependent off of it in this aspect. I do fully realize that one aspect of the Forsaken is how poor their existence is in an extension of how undeath affects them, but even then another aspect of the Forsaken (at least to me) is who they push a way to -improve- their situation.

They want a way to exist longer, to create new more undead, and to remove the Light which would otherwise be used against them; they want to prolong their undeath and spread it, so I assume they would want to find a method of healing which did not make that existence a miserable one. While healing others may not seem like one of the self-centered views of the Forgotten Shadow I think it can fit in rather well when you take into account that it would likely only be undead healed by the method-- thus they're doing it for their own benefit (and the benefit of the Forsaken as a whole as well, since they seem to often be in such a mindset).

Eeeeh. I'll get to my bottom line here. Basically I feel that if we're willing to fill in gaps with abilities or allow unplayable mage specializations, then just giving shadow priests a healing spell really isn't that much of a big deal. Variant ability? Yeah, sure. But it seems like an attribute that could be added without detracting anything, and its already in such wide use.

Established facts: Priests can use both light and shadow magic regardless of their actual faith or spec,

In regards to this, just recall that Benedictus in Stormwind was a twilight insurgent, yet used the Light well enough to represent the church. As well, Confessor Paletress was part of the Argent Tournament's group; a worshipper of the Light, yet was able to call upon the shadow (quite well, in fact).

[Vrahn]

I've always played under the assumption that shadow priests are capable of mending undead via the use of shadow magic in order to make repairs here and there, and I remember it being stated someplace that the Forsaken would go to them for such repairs.

As far as healing them with the light the lore panel that was referenced I suppose pretty much legitimetizes it however I still prefer to take the stance that holy energy would harm or eventually kill undead, again that's personal bias though as I feel it makes the most sense.

Do note however that doesn't mean shadow priests are capable of necromancy as those are two very different areas, patching flesh together again, perhaps restoring some of the arcane flow and maybe -maybe- being able to re-attach limbs, but that's about it.