Allowed and Disallowed Character Concepts

[Aadora]

And I suspect the idea is to also not have to make a new post every single time a new question comes up.

[Harmonic]

I'd suggest ideas... but as I've stated, I literally can't visualize a fair medium. Haha. I hope it works out, it'd be nice to have something in between the two ideas, however personally speaking I'd say I'd like to see some solid structure to build with.

[Grakor456]

I suppose hashing out what said limitations might be would help.

Also, I've struck through the whole Runemaster thing. It's kind of off to the side, and after examples from Flammos and the general rhetoric used, I'm feeling better about this anyway. I'm still not especially happy with how common runic powers are being used, but like all fads these things come and go. So, let's focus on the idea of coming up with ways to put forth character creation guidelines.

[Sol]

Figure we may as well use this thread for general discussion regarding what will and won't fly in character concepts. This has been bugging me for a while and there appears to be two conflicting schools of thought regarding it, so while we're on the subject of what is and isn't allowed in a variant class:

Can warriors utilise divine or arcane magic, to a limited extent, to explain certain abilities of the class? I mean, we have Wardens and Mountain Kings running around doing much the same with nary an eye batted. There was an example given (by you, I believe, Grakor, although I've only heard it anecdotally) when the variant system was first being discussed: a warrior who used the Light in his class abilities. But warriors using magic seems to be an issue of some contention outside of certain specific, lore-relevant variant classes, so it'd be handy to get some kind of final verdict on the issue.

What are we thinking?

[Grakor456]

I don't have a problem with Warriors/Rogues/Hunters explaining their class abilities via magic, especially some of the more unusual ones (Spell Reflection is hard to justify without it, though not impossible.) The idea, however, should be to keep the classes with their central themes. With warriors, they're strong and tough dude(tte)s that can beat people with weapons really well, but I don't think that necessarily excludes them from knowing a magic trick or two.

[Krent]

I find Runemasters kind of Overpowered. I strongly dislike duelling them because you know for sure they are going to win and you'll lose interest. Some may make the Rune of Speed or something which just lets them run around (from experience). I wouldn't mind the scrapping of the class because again, I don't really like them. But we should introduce Monks now, because I like martial arts and I like RP'ing them. But those are just my two cents

-SunThas

No one should be allowed to make themselves OP. There should always, always, always be either an even ground (in the case of rolls) or a logical counter (in the case of trust) to duels. Unless both players consent to a clear disadvantage ( I.E Player 1 RP's a Peasent, and Player 2 RP's a seasoned war veteran), one shouldn't be able to power-game over the other with their prestige abilities. I think the problem you're experiencing has to do with individual players rather than the class as a whole. If anyone tries to power-game you, you should report them to a GM.

As for this whole topic...mmm.

BIG EDIT: Oh man Grak I just realized that your avatar is an orc Goku and I spent like a good portion of my thread ripping on Goku and it could be misconstruction as a sleight on you and I wanted to say that I don't mean it like that at all and maybe I'm being way too paranoid but people are like that so I'll say that the two things are entirely coincidental you know I don't think these things through I kinda just make it all up as I go along ya know? I'm sorry

I'm gonna talk about the d20 books. Yes, those d20 books. Bear in mind, I haven't read the books in over 2 years because I'm too lazy to torre-, err, legally purchase copies of them from my local bookstore. So, if I say anything erroneous, please correct me!

I like martial arts stuff. And I like Runemasters. And I like monks. I mean, Rofupi's original inception was a gnomish monk, back before the days Blizzard was anywhere near making MoP. Back then, all we had were the d20 books. If I recall correctly, in the d20 books, Monk was a base class, who was nothing more than a "unarmored warrior with a high dodge bonus". Nothing mystical or fancy. The monk had skills like "Flurry" and "dodge", stuff which purely dealt with the physical.

Runemaster was a prestige introduced in one of the 'Magic and Mayhem' books (I think the first one), as a way of 'powering up' the monk base class. And it introduced all sorts of runes and abilities.

Now, now, now. I know. We all agreed to stop using the d20 books to base stuff on. I know this, and agree with it! Why?

'Cause the d20 books were ridiculous, yo.

The thing that turned me off was that, according to the d20 books, you could be Goku.

No seriously.

You could be Goku.

You could give yourself enough runes to fly, fire projectiles from your hands, make your skin hard, instantly teleport from place-to-place, strike at multiple opponents with really fast attacks, add fire to your attacks...

You could be Goku.

In fact, you could be even more ridiculous than Goku. With the ability to burrow underground, and heal yourself, and add fire and poison damage to your attacks. Because, why not? Its pen and paper yo.

When I made this realization during Rofu's rune-mastery, I had to force myself not to be Goku. Because I didn't wanna be Goku. I didn't wanna have Rofu flying around throwing plasma at people. Plus, I took the "Prestige classes are made to facilitate RP not empower the character" to heart.

So when we made the decision to nix most of the d20 books I was all for it. Some of the crap in there was just really, really silly.

But, that decision didn't come without a problem. A problem that I think is what the GM team is trying to address right now.

See, the problem with classes right now is that nobody really knows what they are. They just know what they aren't. They know that the d20 books aren't supposed to be used as a structure because they're too silly and Blizzard has essentially trumped them many times over with the new expansions to the game. But, without that kinda basis, we have this variant system which is...odd.

I'll admit it straight up.

I dunno what the variation system exactly is. Maybe its 'cause I'm hella dumb at interpreting open-ended things, but the whole thing confuses me. So much so that it took me a whole month and a half to get Rofupi's profile re-made in the latest server generation. And, honestly, all I did was re-submit the prestige profile I did before, with some things re-worded to make Rofupi a Not-Runemaster-But-Kinda-Yeah.

And, the weird thing about this all is that this system makes us all like a Supreme Court Justice, in that our characters end up based on how we and others interpret the lore. But what is that lore? No one knows for certain.

Blizzard has made it clear that they don't care 'bout the lore. So, its up to us players to do it. And that leads to messy situations like what we have on COTH right now.

Wait what was I supposed to be getting at.

Oh, yeah. Structure. Or maybe not structure? Root? Basis? Foundation? Yeah, Foundation. Foundation works.

We need some kind of foundation for character classes. Something concrete and definitive, that goes beyond individual interpretation. And, I think, we need to get back to the roots of what the Prestige system was supposed to do in the first place. That is, to facilitate RP.

Everything should be used to facilitate as much RP as possible.

As in, you should be picking a class that facilitates RP.

Not to make yourself better in combat or fancier than the rest.

That's what the prestige system was originally intended for. An expansion to the character and a means as a McGuffin to move them within their own interactive narrative. That's why we had the "if you go for this you gotta write a lot more stuff" rule. Most people interpreted this as a sort of 'punishment' or 'grind', which justified the fancy powers and added abilities. As in, "Ohhhhh, since I have to put in a lot of work to get this class, I should be more powerful than others!"

But that was a huge misconception. One we need to fix.

The point of all the extra work wasn't to justify power-levels. It was to...facilitate RP.

What am I talkings?

The ol' "the journey is better than the destination" cliche.

For example, if your character was going to be a Ley Walker, you would be able to get more RP in the training and exploration associated with that class. It'd serve as the perfect excuse for your character to be everywhere and anywhere in-game.

"So, human, why are you in Darnassus right now?"
"Oh, I'm studying these things called ley-lines. I'm searching for one around in the area"
"How interesting, what is a ley-line?"
"Well they're blah blah blah"
"Ohhhh, neato. Here, lets go on an adventure to find this ley-line so we can establish a connection between our characters and have many future RP together"

Was kinda how it was supposed to go.

Instead, players kinda saw it this way.

"So human, why are you in Darnassus right now?"
"Because I wrote like 20 pages on the forums and have thus attained complete master of every ley-line ever, with the powers associated with it."
"Uhh...that's cool, I guess"
"It is. I put in more 'work' than you, which means I'm cooler. You have to treat me as such because I'm better than you. If we get into a fight, I'll probably win, because my class is all suped-up and exotic where as you're just a boring druid."
"Druids aren't boring "
"Dude, you turn into a freaking owl-penguin thing. I can like, harness the power of magic power-lines. Ya don't stand a chance."
"I don't really agree with it, but I'll go along with this idea because I haven't been here as long as you have. I'll just have to work for my own prestige so I can bully others in the COTH arms race."

And that is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggggeeeeeee problem.

While not everyone will agree with me, I find the most interesting part of the RP being the "training" stage. As in, that middle part of development between "rookie" and "master". And, truthfully, life should always be about continual self-improvement in everything. A person should never reach a point where they "get everything" and have "mastered" whatever it is they set out do already. That makes for a boring character and person, dont'cha think?

That's why (and I really hate to toot on Rofupi here because every time I do it makes me feel hella lame) Rofu, thus far, only knows 2 runes. Everything else in his profile is set there to be only learned once Rof has gone out and meditated on the ley line. The idea behind Rof being an RM in the first place was that it was an excuse for him to wander around the world and interact with everyone without people being all like "Whoa whats a gnome doing here in this part of the world?"

That, and I wanna be Jet Li. Not Goku, but Jet Li. The wandering, slightly-crazy young guy who keeps perfecting his martial arts style through crazy adventures. Jet Li is pretty awesome. Seriously go watch The Tai Chi Master its like the best movie ever you won't regret it.

Of course this lead to the problem of Rofupi always being a Rune-noob as per Rune Master. See, I never progressed in his development because I have multiple problems in real life and on COTH. I'm all anti-social and stuff, meaning I don't ever find RP outside of the few events I can remember to show up for. And there's also the bigger issues of people always staying in Darkshore all the time, but I won't blame my personal failings on that because that's a stupid thing to do. I mean, I totally wanna, but I know the fault lies more on my own laziness / anti-social tendencies than server mentality. I have no one to RP with and its no other fault than my own.

(it wouldn't hurt if more people were willing to step outside of Darkshore, though. Just RP for the sake of RP'ing...not have it have anything to do with events or anything. Juuuuuuuuuusstttt saying.)


So uhh, what was the point I was supposed to be making?

Oh. In particular to Rune Master, I think the best course of action would be for the GM's to make a definitive list of the specific runes that can and cannot be used. Because, if we leave it up to player's own interpretation of the silly d20 books, we're gonna have a lot of Goku's.

We don't want a lot of Goku's.

We need a definitive list of "accepted runes" and "not accepted runes", and then have a limit on how many a character can pick. That is, of course, assuming we're keeping the rune mastery magic in tact.

When I was making Rofu, I broke it down to "Simple Runes" and "Complex Runes", based on how I interpreted the lore. The "Simple Runes" being a passive buff that stays on, and the "Complex Runes" being used to enhance specific actions / attacks on a one-time basis.

For example; Rune of Hot Coals = Simple Rune. Gives the user fists ov FIYAHHHH!!!!!! This would be on at all times, enhancing the unarmed damage of the user.

Rune of Healing = Complex Rune. Allows the user to heal them self, or draw a rune on another to heal. One-time use only, consumed upon activation.

And the limit, of course, would be that the user could only have one Simple Rune activated at a time, and could only use one Complex Rune at a time. That is, only one passive buff 'on' and one active skill at a time. This was due to the fact that channeling runes required constant concentration, and no one would be able to have full access to ALL of them at the same time.

But...this was simply how I intepretted the RM class. A lot of people would disagree with me, and its not really my place to tell them how to play it. I outright ignored a lot of runes (runes like Teleportation, Burrowing, Flight,) because I didn't want to be Goku, but from what I've heard not other players have done the same.

So until someone of authority steps in to say so, I really can't says anything. Just, sorta saying my perspective on things.



Crap, I did it again. Made another really long post without any point. Do people read these things? Why do you read these things?! Weren't you supposed to do that important thing a few hours ago?

Uhhh. Here. Have some Kintama Girls for your trouble.

Spoiler:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb1RBZX33To

[Rigley]

Since I've noticed a few posts saying that the variant system doesn't make sense / is not fully understood, I thought I might try to outline it:

Basically instead of giving people a rigid set of classes and a rigid ability list we did the variants as they are now. This sprang from, when we were making specific classes in the past, many requests to add certain abilities into the class or more elements, or whathaveyou. So much that at times it became a bit overbearing, and sometimes only a few GMs were truly able to weigh in on the idea.

Thing is, when you sit down and make a concrete list there will inevitably be people who want to add to it; roleplay is about creativity, after all, and we have to expect people to want to add things to their character. Now while some abilities were indeed out there, others might have been more acceptable; just something we glossed over, or a permissible addition. Having a strict list was inadequate because of this; we just had too many ideas and questions and the team often couldn't get to them in a timely fashion.

The idea with variants was much more simple, in comparison. The idea is to take the class groundwork you are given and build up-- incorporating abilities that you think -your- character should have from their past and their training. A rogue brought up in an abbey which uses the light to imbue his strikes and other special moves, for instance, or maybe include his fair skill with a firearm. These abilities aren't meant to be wildly altering; just additions which make your character more of your character, and less of a 'pick from a list for X abilities' sort of deal.

Granted-- a wrench is thrown into these ideas when you reach concepts such as runemasters, spellbreakers, and etc; classes which are not already playable in game. I think the issue might spring from when the class itself is substituted-- and in that regard I think that's where most of the issue is popping up previously with runemasters, in that often their standard class wasn't taken into as much of a count.

Just my own observation, of course. I'm not really adding that much in this, just hoping I can help clarify some things.

[Jonoth]

Krent hit the nail on the head I think when he mentioned that most people tend to skip to the end of the journey rather than having them at the more interesting developmental stages. It's largely why the first characters we make are our most interesting, because we take the time to get them into the world, and once you make new ones, you tend to have plotlines for them already set up with people you've met, rather than having them really explore. So people tend to develop classes in much the same way.

I think the key is, if you want more of a hard rule on things, is to keep things within the realm of Class+Profession. For example:

• Witch Doctor = Priest or Shaman + Alchemy
  
• Demon Hunter = Rogue (using the Demon tracking ability from the Cursed Vision of Sageras item) + possibly the Demonslaying enchantment on their blades
  
• Apothecary = Alchemist
  
• Techno-whatever = Class + Engineering, where the engineering provides for the class ability, such as special boots that allow the Warrior Thunder Clap, or a device that helps a Mage with their Mirror Image ability by helping them split the projection.
  

The idea is that variants are either specialized in a certain area of the class, or vary based on what they take on as a profession. It provides for a wide array of combinations while still providing for some limitations. And at the end of the day, profiles would still have to plausibly explain how the combination came about.

With this logic, a Runemaster/Runecrafter can be any class that uses runes to augment their abilities. And said augmentation can be related to the glyphs already available to us in game. I'm developing a Rogue now that I intend to practice runecrafting, and all the runes do are basically explain the Sprint and Killing Spree abilities, and allow for using Sprint to tread water as the minor glyph allows for.

[flammos200]

[*]Demon Hunter = Rogue (using the Demon tracking ability from the Cursed Vision of Sageras item) + possibly the Demonslaying enchantment on their blades

Actually. Demon Hunters are just Melee-oriented Warlocks. Tainted Fireball, Sense Demons, Immolate, Mana burn, Drain Demon Soul, Metamorph, etc. etc.

But yeah. I have no qualms about simply explaining a Warrior's skills/spells(such as Spell Reflection, or their skill at smacking people, or their defense) as Runes. Heck, normal people would find it really hard to produce a shockwave as they stomp the ground. Similarly, I've done Paladin skills/abilities as Rune-based ones.