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Reigen Requests: Event Etiquette
#16
Mmm. It's early and I dunno if I'm coherent enough to a good point. But coherency has never stopped me before, so....


Lemme slip on some Krent Meditation Musics ™


I've noticed that a recurring issue we've had on this server, especially one that crops up with problems between GMs/DMs and players, is this disconnection between "realism" and "significance."

GMs and DMs, being concentrated on establishing storylines and plots on an over-arching, "worldly" narrative (one set on examine entire factions and armies and whole narratives), want to make them as realistic as possible. Because they're focused on working out an entire plot line, they want it to be believable. They want it to have depth. And, most importantly, they want it to be realistic; have it invoke some sort of peril, some sort of weight.

Players, on the other hand, operate on an individualistic narrative. That is, the individual player is focused on developing a good character to role-play whatever literary avenue they want to explore. They want to develop something that can lead to interaction, something that can get involved in the fantasy world around them. And, like all individual characters, the struggle of the player is to find significance in the place that they're in. Something that makes them "matter" to the world.

Of course, I'm generalizing on both ends. Not every GM/DM wants to make realistic, epic, grand-scale plot lines, and not every player wants to develop their character to a significant level. But, that's the general trend, from my own observations.

Now. Both of these desires, on each spectrum, is good. I can't fault any side for wanting to act this way. However, it is this discrepancy that I believe is to be the cause of all the conflict players and GM/DMs seem to be having with one another, in events.

On one hand, you have a DM who wants to make a strong, well-developed, storyline. One that brings mutual enjoyment to all parties involved. On the other hand, you have a playerbase who's enjoyment comes from differentiating themselves from the crowd, from attaining some sort of character significance. The wants of the playerbase do not mesh up with the wants to the DM, because they are contradictory to one another.

The DM says, "you're all in this together! Everyone is the same!"

This position is necessary, in order to avoid favoritism and / or one player "outshining" others.

The playerbase says, "but I want to have a significant connection to this event! I want my character to matter in this peril, otherwise I'm just background prop!"

This position is also necessary, because it is the whole point of role-play. Character development, emotional connection. The experience can only come from that connection.

Each position is necessary and validated. But, they contradict one another. And from that contradiction, comes frustration, anxiety, and anger from both parties.

What we so often see is a frustrated DM feeling more like a baby-sitter than an actual Dungeon Master, trying to keep egos under control. And we also see frustrated players, sighing at the results of mediocre rolls and being gridlocked into mediocrity because of game mechanics.

Tensions build up. Players are either detached from the event at best, or volatile at worst. Indifferent from the mediocrity, or raging in an attempt to break it. This is why so many try to "one up" one another, why "highest roll to kill the bad guy" are such sought-out commodities.

And, of course, GM/DM's end up trying to contain it all. Manage the train wreck, before it sets the whole town on fire.




What can be done?

To be honest, I have no idea. The problem seems to come from the very concept of an event. Which is why, I feel, that we might need to come up with a whole, new, radical kind of approach to this.


Speaking personally, I've become detached from events because of all this talk about "you are not the big damn hero" and the episodic, temporary approach to them.

I feel as though events get too much attention. People only log on or go out of the OOC (yes, I'm gonna complain about this again, even though all of you don't think it's a problem) Village, when they hear word of an event.

People would rather spend their time dawdling in the OOC area of the server, spouting memes and what have you. This means that RP outside of "events" is non-existent; this means that there's no modicum for one to develop a connection between characters. This also means that there's no build up to whatever conflict there is to the event. Or any other medium for which players to attain their want and need for significance.

Because no one is RP'ing outside of events, or outside of the little clique-bubbles that they've established. Random strangers no longer want to RP anymore. "Random" RP, RP for the sake of RP, is discouraged. People only want to RP with the people that they've already RP'd with.

So.

I'll end up in some event, that I didn't really have any lead in to. Plopped in the middle of a bunch of people that I don't know, who's characters have little to no connection to mine. I'll end up sitting back, waiting long periods of time for my turn to roll. And then I'll roll. And I might hit a bad guy, I might not. I might kill a badguy, I might not. But I don't really have any connection to said badguy, or the organization that they're a part of, or have any idea of what they're trying to do.

I'm just a grain of salt, floating in a sea of strangers. No one wants to RP before the event. No one wants to RP after.

The only thing I have to look forward to, is maybe I'll roll high when it comes to kill the Main Badguy. Then I can do something creative, and in nature of my character.

Like describe Rofupi doing some cool Gnome-Fu combo, or have Corlmitz get inventive with one of his explosives.

Why? 'Cause that's all I can look forward to, given the absence of everyone else.

But, apparently, that's exactly the kind of stuff people complaining about. And has been making people so salty.

I like being the big damn hero.

I like kicking realism to the curb.

I do everything over-the-top, crazy, and wild. I make characters that shouldn't be possible work, somehow.

I dunno what it is, either. Every time I see someone make one of these posts that are all "This Is What's Ruining RP!!!" I always scratch myself and ask "what RP?"

Where is this all RP that people are constantly irritated with? Every time I hop online, I just see people in the OOC village, going "dat feel XD meme bro."

Egh. Well. I'm getting too salty for daily recommended dose, and fear of going onto a tangent.

So I guess that's all for this post.

Have some OCRemix;

Spoiler:
[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrkzIN2eP0U[/video]

"What a mess we made, when it all went wrong..."
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#17
..That remix made reading that so much more significant, Krent. Very well put, as usual.
[Image: desc_head_freemasons.jpg]

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#18
While I'll agree with Krent's post, my belief is that if you want people to be more significant in an event, then you should participate/run events with smaller groups of people. When a GM's trying to run an event for 10+ people because folk'll get pissy if they can't participate, we really can't focus on the individual efforts of people. However, if you got a group of five, you can make everyone stick out and not give two shights about game mechanics. I've thrown trust fights at people randomly and had some really cool results. But I wouldn't try to do the same 'trust fighting' in a raid with so many people. It just doesn't really work.

Same thing with stuff like Dungeons and Dragons.

Got a small group of four players? Those four players will all feel really significant.

Got a group of ten players? Man, there is no way you can give them all the spotlight. Best to just keep the story going.
Quote:[8:53AM] Cassius: Xigo is the best guy ever. he doesn't afraid of anything.
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#19
Krent, I want to gift wrap that post and deliver it to everyone on the forums :|
Your stories will always remain...
[Image: nIapRMV.png?1]
... as will your valiant hearts.
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#20
(01-20-2013, 09:29 AM)Xigo Wrote: While I'll agree with Krent's post, my belief is that if you want people to be more significant in an event, then you should participate/run events with smaller groups of people. When a GM's trying to run an event for 10+ people because folk'll get pissy if they can't participate, we really can't focus on the individual efforts of people. However, if you got a group of five, you can make everyone stick out and not give two shights about game mechanics. I've thrown trust fights at people randomly and had some really cool results. But I wouldn't try to do the same 'trust fighting' in a raid with so many people. It just doesn't really work.

Same thing with stuff like Dungeons and Dragons.

Got a small group of four players? Those four players will all feel really significant.

Got a group of ten players? Man, there is no way you can give them all the spotlight. Best to just keep the story going.

What I think Krent was trying to provide a perspective as to why more so than a solution, though.
[Image: desc_head_freemasons.jpg]

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#21
AND I WAS JUST PRESENTING A PERSPECTIVE TOO.

LAY OFF, RENSIN.

OR YOU BETTER GET READY FOR A COCK FIGHT.

Spoiler:
[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=1446687&stc=1&d=1332434466]
Quote:[8:53AM] Cassius: Xigo is the best guy ever. he doesn't afraid of anything.
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#22
(01-20-2013, 09:59 AM)Xigo Wrote: AND I WAS JUST PRESENTING A PERSPECTIVE TOO.

LAY OFF, RENSIN.

OR YOU BETTER GET READY FOR A COCK FIGHT.

Spoiler:
[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=1446687&stc=1&d=1332434466]

HOW DARE YOU SHARE THOSE INTIMATE IMAGES OF US COCK FIGHTING.

You know I only show off Bubba to people I care about.

*Runs off crying*
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#23
I think that people have done a good job at being respectful during events. At least the people I've RP'd with. There are some things I see often, that I'll list here.

Language:

Generally, players want to know what other characters are saying even if their character wouldn't understand that language, so people should remember to use "<insert dialog here>" or [Draenei] (hand typed before the dialog) when RPing speaking a language that isn't common. The reason this is a respectful thing to do is because players want to know what's going on in the developing story of the RP.

Use of raid and party:

When you're RPing with at least a few people, it's best to keep OOC chatter somewhere else. If you really want to have an enjoyable OOC conversation with another player, try to set up a place where you can chat such as skype or in PMs. I can't tell you how annoyed I get when people sidetrack into OOC conversation (most of the time it's conversation I don't care about) in the middle of a RP. This leaves other RPers hanging as they wait for you to get back to the RP. In the worst cases, IC emotes will not be noticed because the OOC chat spams the chatbox so quickly and people forget to scroll back up. We've all been guilty of it, but we should all remember that there are other places where we can communicate.

In-Game Representation:

You're not always going to get it, especially if the DM isn't a GM and can't move monsters or NPCs around. It's polite to not always expect everything to be visually represented in an event, because if a DM is putting thought into describing the environment around everyone, or the monster that's about to attack, the least you can do is put the effort into using your imagination.

Large event stuff:

1) Events with a large amount of players involved can be hectic, and half of the time emotes will be ignored because things are going so fast. Sometimes, it's best to settle down a little when the DM is making raid warnings for the RP. Theirs is the emote that needs to be seen by everyone, so that they don't miss out on what was just said. It's kind of hard to combat this problem though.

2) We've discussed circles before (during the meet and greet), and most have admitted that circles definitely exist on the server, so there's no denying it. Where circles become significantly problematic is during events. Remember that there are chances to leave your usual circle during large events, where there are plenty of characters that your character hasn't interacted with. It's difficult for players, particularly new ones, to get something out of an event when it seems like a high school cafeteria full of cliques that never interact with anyone outside that table.

That's all I can really think of right now.
[Image: anim_500.gif]
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#24
I hate cliques. No, seriously, I do. If I can, I will role-play with you. That's the bottom line. I seriously don't care about your faction. Would some of my characters? Of course! Factions play a big part in the game, and it makes sense for some characters to have opinions. It's not meant to insult you, or alienate you; that's just how the character is and has developed. It might change with time. Heck, the situation probably will. Try and role-play with others as often as possible. (Unless, y'know, that area is controlled by another faction and you want your character to get in there. You probly' gonna die.)
[Image: 54079-Dr-Evil-air-quotes-lasers-gif-A6nY.gif]
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#25
I have tried a few styles of event running with the Ebon Blade storyline and I have to say that as a DM I do my best to try and make it interesting for each and every player involved. If you have a character who shows up to events for a while then I usually start to put things into the events for that character specifically in order to give the crew their time to shine (for example Seda recently stumbled onto her mini storyline that we'll explore come Cata) Seda shows up for nearly every event (pretty sure every event) and throws a well developed character into it without the need for shiny special prizes or glittering Kung Fu moments of badass-ness. That's what I love about those who come to the Ebon Events (there are a lot to name, you know who you are) they're there for the story and event, not a "moment to shine". And for their awesome player selves I try to reward them with special things for each toon. I will say this.... If you show up to an event for the first time and expect me to do so for you the answer is a firm no. Basically put I've seen people come and go and for me to revolve a story around someone who isn't dedicated like the other event participants just simply put... is not going to happen. I'm a firm believer in the "If you want it, show me." style of things. If you want an epic character in a sweeping story that spans the four corners of Azeroth and beyond I can surely give you that... IF... you show that you're down for the haul. With that said IRL stuff is obviously more important when it comes to making events etc. lol I think everyone knows what I'm trying to say here.

With that said I welcome all and give them the chance to dig in for the long haul. If they're down, I'm down and I will start putting things together for them.
[Image: 15.jpg]
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#26
(01-19-2013, 05:37 PM)Reigen Wrote:
  • Bragging about ‘getting the kill’.

I can see why this becomes a thing people focuses on. Especially if you are free to make the final emote yourself, because it's epic enough then others will remember that you were one who dealt the final and -seemingly- most important blow.

It is a skewed focus but I can see the point for some. In my own events I just make fights challenging enough that surviving is the only focus.


(01-19-2013, 05:37 PM)Reigen Wrote:
  • Not listening to event rules

This has been a big issue for me ever since I initiated the Draenic Pilgrimage. Participants, people interested in joining and even people that have nothing to do with the storyline have been at my throat for some of my rules. Despite how many times or how well I have explained just why they are in place.

As a DM you just don't throw in a rule for the heck of it, they serve a purpose even if you don't comprehend it. So follow Reigen's suggestion and go with it, please?
(02-24-2012, 10:15 AM)Piroska Wrote: Conspiracy. That's all it is; Kret's afraid that your pure, digital awesomeness would crash the server if it were allowed.
(06-14-2013, 05:42 PM)McKnighter Wrote: Bovel, Lord of Beards

Character About Involvement
Causticity Blackbreath Goblin Alchemist -
Telaah Draenei Anchorite Writings of an Anchorite

[Image: kiXJxhI.gif]
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#27
I've been thinking about making a few small events/adventures myself, and these actually make me more nervous if anything... oh boy.... lol

But these do give me some new insight and ideas on what to expect though.
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#28
I agree with Krent. I WANNA BE THE HERO! To me roleplaying World of Warcraft is roleplaying someone significant, not some nameless fellow. But I also agree with Xigo and such a feel is much easier to portray in small events of 4-5 people. I feel the best way is to split parties into small groups when running events... this will of course be a much larger strain on the event host but having everyone working towards different parts of the same event may make everybody feel more epic in their time.
"Do not be fooled if you hear laughter, or happen upon a smile. There is no happiness or merriment here."
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#29
I was really intimidated by the thought when I first started throwing events/sending people on quests too. I look at it as a continuous learning experience, and that makes it less stressful. If you're just starting out, you can also try throwing mini events for some of your friends for honest/but "loving" feedback. Haha.

Starting small was the best choice I ever made. Because if I couldn't handle those few people/basic combat, I was sooo not ready to move onto bigger and "more epic" scenarios.

You get to know what you really expect from yourself, and from your players eventually. Some rules or styles of event holding might work for others, but not for you. All about finding your niche/style, perhaps.

I wish you the best of luck, and if you ever need any help with anything/need someone to bounce ideas off of or practice with...lemme know! :)
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#30
(01-20-2013, 05:45 PM)ChampionMouse Wrote: I was really intimidated by the thought when I first started throwing events/sending people on quests too. I look at it as a continuous learning experience, and that makes it less stressful. If you're just starting out, you can also try throwing mini events for some of your friends for honest/but "loving" feedback. Haha.

Starting small was the best choice I ever made. Because if I couldn't handle those few people/basic combat, I was sooo not ready to move onto bigger and "more epic" scenarios.

You get to know what you really expect from yourself, and from your players eventually. Some rules or styles of event holding might work for others, but not for you. All about finding your niche/style, perhaps.

I wish you the best of luck, and if you ever need any help with anything/need someone to bounce ideas off of or practice with...lemme know! :)
Wintergrasp.
Quote:[8:53AM] Cassius: Xigo is the best guy ever. he doesn't afraid of anything.
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