[Suggestion] Profile Anonymity

[Kirabo]

I've read this thread a few hours ago, while I was at school, and in the meantime Bovel said exactly what I wanted to point as a counter-thesis. Specifically:

I don't support the idea because I think the uttermost key to successfully keep and run a community is open and honest communication.

He is absolutely right. We're trying to harbor a community here, writers from all around the world, and try to give them a place to run away to and enjoy themselves. If it were otherwise, exempli gratia - we had sub-sections of CotH for Adventure RP, Combat RP, Romance RP, it'd be a whole different story.

Moreover, the fact that you feel we need anonymity says something about the community we're part of. KageAcuma put it very nicely:

There are people on here who have a hard time finding rp due to their forum name. I've seen people who don't like being known because of the fact that people will look up their character, see the name, and then exclude them.

This is a whole 'nother problem. This is a problem with the psyche of our community, a community which we should feel free to open our souls to, hoping for - no - expecting acceptance. And yet, here we are, judging peope by their past, placing a dam in our minds which blocks the change of opinion and leaving potential writers at a stand-still. It's bad, when you reflex upon it more in-depth. Really bad. This doesn't mean that we need a change in how the formalities work, but quite the opposite - the informalities.

[Delta]

I don't support the idea because I think the uttermost key to successfully keep and run a community is open and honest communication. I do realize where the idea stems from but I don't think it is just big enough a issue to implement such dratstic measures.

You mention one thing, where does the anonomity end? I think for each level of secrecy things will get more complicated and more prone to drama. In the end we would only shuffle more power and responsebility on the GM team which I think in the end is something we want to strive away from.

And I'm not sure if I agree that we should take away players rights to chose not to RP with someone they do not like. Not everyone can act like a grown up, be diplomatic and understanding, that's why there's a GM team that can step in and be fair, realistic and objective.

Lastly I think that the main reason so many charaters remain unprofile comes down to the fact that people want to RP that which strays away from Warcraft lore and server policy. Just this last week I've seen a second generation death knight of an unfitting race, a low class character that suddenly becomes a high positioned memeber of an in-game faction and a non-human afflicted by the worgen curse. Before I actually bothered giving GMs a heads up but I don't have the energy to do it anymore unless the issues are painfully obvious.

Bottomline is that our standards -will- thin the herd of avaliable and fitting players and I think we sometimes forget that. To prevent this people need to be more helpful and less condescending (as much as they can).

I normally support transpicuous communication and laying one’s cards face-up on the table, but even though being clear about who you are and what you intend can be considered honest, that does not mean that operating anonymously is dishonest. Withholding a snippet of information does not make one a liar or a cheater, nor unworthy of trust and belief.

It begins and ends at profiles, in answer to your second point. My suggestion solely focuses on those. Total secrecy would be absurd, ‘cause we’ve still got to plan roleplay and events and what-have-you. I concede that anonymity on the internet tends to lead to a certain mindset; a disregard for the worth of words that a person knows he can never be held accountable for. With that said, I believe what I’m pushing for would result in more good than harm, if any harm could even come of it.

There are people here on the server that we’ve come to realise we just don’t mesh alongside, and I respect a person’s right to pick and choose who she roleplays with. I don’t believe that right should trump the right to privacy, however. As it stands, anyone who wishes to covertly make contact with another person on this server can pick one of dozens of ways to do so, the least of which is refraining from writing a profile. This wouldn’t affect that situation unless one makes it their policy to only roleplay with approved characters.

I am inclined to disagree that the abundance of unprofiled characters stems from a wish to circumvent rules and evade consequences for breaking norms, but I might be giving folks more credit than they deserve if such flagrant examples as those are running around. I know that there are several people, myself included, who would feel less fettered submitting a profile if there was a way to do so privately. Maybe folks would be less inclined to break the rules if their shame in not having a firm grasp of the lore wasn’t likely to be announced for all to see!

Humans have a strong psychology desire for privacy. Nothing secret generally goes on behind a toilet door, but many people still close it regardless. I find strong-arming the availability of identity a bit discomfiting, and I continue to advocate an alternative option.

He is absolutely right. We're trying to harbor a community here, writers from all around the world, and try to give them a place to run away to and enjoy themselves. If it were otherwise, exempli gratia - we had sub-sections of CotH for Adventure RP, Combat RP, Romance RP, it'd be a whole different story.

This is a whole 'nother problem. This is a problem with the psyche of our community, a community which we should feel free to open our souls to, hoping for - no - expecting acceptance. And yet, here we are, judging people by their past, placing a dam in our minds which blocks the change of opinion and leaving potential writers at a stand-still. It's bad, when you reflex upon it more in-depth. Really bad. This doesn't mean that we need a change in how the formalities work, but quite the opposite - the informalities.

As writers, I would argue that we ought to know better than most how valuable controlling information is. Do you think you would enjoy reading a novel of the mystery genre if the opening line was, “Dave killed John, and this is precisely how he beguiled the cast and did the deed:”? A bit of intrigue can go a long way.

I have no objections to the last bit, but I’ll point upwards and refer back to being allowed to pick who you do and do not roleplay with. That’s a right people have as long as it doesn’t infringe on any other fundamentals.

(Apologies for passing you over, Sachiko. I still can’t decide whether you’re being ominously serious or just making a clever play on your avatar and signature. For the purposes of keeping the thread on track, I’ll congratulate you for a reference well-made and invite you to expand on what you said if you believe there is a point to be made.)

[Harmonic]

Another big reason for this----people using the anonymity in a negative way. As in, making it so that they can troll people or otherwise without others being able to figure out who they are. One of the things I remember as a GM, -yes- you could look up who a person was, if they are online.

If someone is using an approved character to basically be an asshat---to be honest--- it's always nice to know who said person is.

I get kinda nervous with people asking for this, only because it's already a pain keeping track of who everyone is in the first place. If I'm just being honest-- there are a lot of cases where I'd like to know who I'm roleplaying with, especially if things start to get really uncomfortable. I feel that making character profiles anonymous would be a step backwards to community openness as Kirabo said, and foster the idea of people being super protective of their identities, to a point where I could see this spurring lots of problems.

I've always said communication on this server is key. You cut out the only way of checking who people are without outright asking, then you're making it so that people can hide. I don't see the benefit beyond what you've said, a "legitimized character" that can be hidden--- but I think that's a price you should have to pay to have an approved character on CoTH--- having to be social enough to where you don't care if people know your name.

Trust me.

Rensin was a name that people hated. Some may still hate it. I know the desire for it, but I honestly think it's a huge step backwards rather than forwards.


Edit: Also, intrigue is fine and dandy, but we aren't writing books, we're trying to function as a community. We often forget that we aren't doing things alone on CoTH, we work together on RP.

[SachikoMaeda]

Okay, time to write a more detailed post.

Why I wouldn't support this as an FH.

I'm sure if such a system would be set up, the player would be anonymous but the FH wouldn't be. We would still write out our judgements as we always woud and then players would assume we knew who they were and still claim we're biased. It's going to be an endless problem because people are people.

Now Sachi, what if the FHs were anonymous too?

We are always kind and considerate (I believe) when writing up our criticisms for a profile because we are seen as people, not just a post on the Internet. It seems the only thing we would have to think about then would be "if I say a meanie, the GMs will nag at me" not "if I say a meanie, I'm a bad person". I honestly question why we need such a system.

Are we mean/unfair in our judgements?
Do we make fun of a profile because or its player?
Do we slap a denial on that just because the player called us mean?

Out system functions fine the way it is. I can't stress enough how dangerous anonymity is in a community. On either side of it. In a way, I have to say suggesting profiles be anonymous is in a way a slap in my face. Or to a slap of all the FHs. If we feel biased in any way about a profile, we discuss is with one another and try to find the least biased one to look it over. Even if the name was hidden, there would still be biased.

I just feel the name is important because it changes us from some mysterious Internet being into people. Characters can only be made by people. Right?

Also this is my 1,000th post. Whee.

[Rigley]

I won't post too much here, since I think most of the points I would cover have been addressed above;

In short, I don't really like the idea. I dislike anonymity to be honest; at least, to this extent. I don't really understand the boon this would bring, in short, and I just see it as a possible source of trouble or just a bit of secrecy that isn't needed amongst the kind of community we want here.

[Binkleheimer]

As a suggestion for the whole anonymous angle, why not utilize the private discussion forums?

Simply just kick out a standard character, remove the Player: bit from the profile, and request that it be simply directly wikified from there.
If they really want others to see the profile that's going up, the approving GM can simply repost it as "Player: Anon". or some such.
That way, the player gets an anonymous status on their profile and the other players can see what got approved (Granted, I don't know if many people care.)

But Binkleheimer, isn't that why they have FHers? To do all the approving for them?
Yes. The only downside is that the players wanting the Anonymous profile in this route would have to wait for their profile to get approved by the GMs who delegated this all to the FHers. Be kinda like it was before FHers were around. Give it a weeks, if you're lucky. Maybe a couple on average. Unlucky? Probably three or more.

That, and FHers can't approve special porfiles, so this could be seen as a sort of special profile (But not really. Unless it is.)

[Harmonic]

I'm pretty sure that option is always available, Binkle.

[Xigo]

I was having a discussion with the other GMs and apparently that is -not- permitted. Which irks me.

I have nothing against anonymous profiles, and am all for the idea. If someone doesn't want you to know who they are, that's fine by me. If someone only wants the GMs to know their character's backstory to prevent people from reading it and going GOLLY GEE LOOKS LIKE THAT'S AN EVIL PSYCHOPATH, fine by me.

If you want to know who the player is, ask them. If said player states he or she wishes to remain anonymous, accept that. If the anonymous individual is actually doing something wrong, report it to the GMs. We can look up account names of ANYONE, whether or not they're online, so long as the character still exists.

I mostly don't profile my characters because of people knowing who I am. When people ask me which GM I am in-game, I state I do not wish to divulge such information. When people ask which GM is controlling the NPCs, I do not respond. This will not change.

[Harmonic]

..It's not? It should be then, I mean, that's a good use of the PD forum.

[Bovel]

that does not mean that operating anonymously is dishonest. Withholding a snippet of information does not make one a liar or a cheater, nor unworthy of trust and belief.

I agree that anonomity does not equal dishonesty, but it can be abused for those that are dishonest. (Which is a thin line for us DMs that harbour loads of secrets for storylines and so on.) Yes, I'm cynical!

It begins and ends at profiles, in answer to your second point. My suggestion solely focuses on those.

For approval only or afterwards as well, for example on the Wiki?

I know that there are several people, myself included, who would feel less fettered submitting a profile if there was a way to do so privately.

I must disagree with you here slightly - Yes, there are quite a few people that just ignore making approved characters because they fear rejection. But making the profile-approval private would mean that it comes down to FH and GM -only- to know all the lore inside and out and ready to make decisions and I'd like to think the community is a good part of perfecting profiles rather than just harassing those that might make perfect ones from the go. As an example I'd mention draenei profiles in general, I know a handful on the Wiki that was approved during my downtime and have flaws I'd pointed out if I were around at time of posting.

If this really is such a huge problem then shouldn't we rather focus on stopping the flaming and instead helping everyone be better people against one another? (One can dream, right?) In the end it is a choice to see rejection on a forum as shame, perhaps CotH is a good place to learn how to handle some criticism?

I mostly don't profile my characters because of people knowing who I am. When people ask me which GM I am in-game, I state I do not wish to divulge such information. When people ask which GM is controlling the NPCs, I do not respond. This will not change.

For the sake of this discussion could you explain why you would want this sort of privacy, even in your role as GM?



If possible, would an anonymous Workshop be something of interest? To see what the community thinks of the concept without being pointed out but not make the final official approval secret.

[Xigo]

Because when I act as a GM, I want to act as a GM. I don't want to act as Xigo with GM powers. If I want someone to know who I am, then I'm coming to that person as a friend, or as another staff member, instead of as a GM.

There's me as a player, and me as a GM. I don't mix the two, though they might agree with eachother sometimes.

[Caravan]

I mostly don't profile my characters because of people knowing who I am. When people ask me which GM I am in-game, I state I do not wish to divulge such information. When people ask which GM is controlling the NPCs, I do not respond. This will not change.

For the sake of this discussion could you explain why you would want this sort of privacy, even in your role as GM?

Players react differently to you if they know (or don't know) who you are, as a GM. This can sometimes get in the way of us doing our job (esp. if our identity isn't exactly important).


Edit: Aww What Xigo said. I've had friends disregard what I've said because they don't see me as Caravan the GM; additionally, some have been hurt by a GM-friend not taking their side. Being able to be <Unknown Character Name the GM> is very useful.

[Delta]

I'm gonna skip some responses as I think we've met the agree-to-disagree horizon. I definitely did not mean to insult anyone by making this suggestion, least of all the Forum Helpers.

PD-approval is an alternative I'd be happy to middle-ground with, but it'd be more work on our green team.

For approval only or afterwards as well, for example on the Wiki?

Approval and Wiki both. The choice to attach 'Delta' to the character would be mine, and doing so would be at my discretion.

But making the profile-approval private would mean that it comes down to FH and GM -only- to know all the lore inside and out and ready to make decisions and I'd like to think the community is a good part of perfecting profiles rather than just harassing those that might make perfect ones from the go. As an example I'd mention draenei profiles in general, I know a handful on the Wiki that was approved during my downtime and have flaws I'd pointed out if I were around at time of posting.

I'm aware that would be a glaring issue if anonymity went the PD route, but I can't think of a technical workaround. A Secret Workshop would be a cool idea, but I'm not sure how that could be implemented, either.

In the end it is a choice to see rejection on a forum as shame, perhaps CotH is a good place to learn how to handle some criticism?

If I could code it just so, I'd keep everything crystal clear - with the exception of names - so that all criticism could be freely offered, received, and taken on board without the author or their level of competence being brought into it. It's a choice to perceive the world the way we do as regards many matters, but in this, I don't see why anyone should be forced to bend.

"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" is widely regarded as a fallacious notion.

[Zarquon]

A GM in TrinityCore should have the command to easily look up the player and account information of a character. There is no account anonymity from a GM, so that's a moot point anyway.

I do not see Delta suggesting this idea primarily to protect the identity of the Forum Helpers, who are emblazoned with a colored name as an ironic rejection of that idea anyway. Thus, the fact that the Forum Helper's identity would not be hidden is a moot point. Another suggestion can be put up to help lend anonymity to a Forum Helper if biasness or perception of that becomes an issue. However, it is a fallacy of logic to dismiss the solution to one problem because it fails to address an entirely different problem.

I completely reject the very notion that anonymity is an insult to the Forum Helpers. On the same note, I too completely reject Delta's first post after 'Tied to this issue'. That concern should be in another thread, and placing it together with the main point of the topic erodes the point itself. It is so much easier to say, "Profiles should be anonymous because there are players who'd prefer anonymity." Ok. "Profiles should be anonymous because there are players who'd prefer anonymity and it reduces GM bias." opens up a whole new can of worm with the implication that there is biasness, which, while I personally think there is, directly contributes to a derailment of the thread because there will be those who'd argue that that implication insults the GMs.

This idea is simple enough; have a private discussion for the approval of character profiles and the removal of 'player:' in the character profile format.

I'd personally be very happy if the country list is removed from account management. Coming from Singapore, there is almost no way I can hide behind a veil of anonymity on any of my characters.

[Rigley]

To be honest, I don't really think this would effect much from the standpoint of a GM. As Zar said, we have a command specifically for checking players and all that.

Personally I just don't see much point in anonymity; if there's an issue that requires you to evade contact on the forum, just bring it up with the GM team and we can try to sort it out.


On the other hand, I do believe that a form of anonymous profiling should be allowed on a case by case basis. I've seen it used before for villains and characters meant to have mystery to them-- just to shy away from the public eye some, in essence. I'd be fine with those being open, but I still would rather there be some actual purpose to the anonymous character rather than just being... anonymous as a preference.