Consideration of Disorders and Conditions

[Xigo]

Perhaps it would be better if we didn't think of didn't explicitly say 'this is my character's mental disorder', and instead state 'this is a conflict my character deals with'. Sure, have it be inspired by a disorder. But let's not go around stating 'my character is a nymphomaniac' or 'my character has ADHD'. Instead, say 'my character struggles with a desire for things to be -just right'. Don't be blatant. Let people fill in the blanks if they really want to.

Because generally the people who actually have these things could be offended by what they consider poor portrayals. Just like how rape is something we don't really want being explicit because the people who actually have gone through that could be offended.

[Grakor456]

It's a contradiction. A huge contradiction. Because on one hand, we're all arguing for things to be more realistic. Yet, when a player decides to explore the real topics that shape individuals and historical atrocity, they're told to stop. They're told that they are RPing "wrong," and being too "serious," and warned not to make an issue over it because people might get offended.

There is only a contradiction if you are choosing to read things in extremes with no room for moderation. If, for you, there is only two extremes, either the Dragonball Z-esque crazy fighting anime-style RP and the gritty, drugs and everything's all dystopian RP, then yeah, there's a contradiction. But that's not the case.

You are looking at things in absolute terms rather than relative ones.

In other words, I want players to explore this space more. I explore it all the time with my characters. Yes, it isn't something that players should do lightly, yes they need a certain degree of caution when doing it, and yes, it isn't something that they should stereotype or confine into labels. But, from the tone of this post, it seems like you're putting down all RP'rs who try to do this.

I'm sitting here, wondering, "well what is it? Everyone keeps yelling at one another to make things more 'realistic,' and it doesn't get more realistic than this."

Yeah. Yeah it does. The point is that in trying to portray things "realistically," you are in danger of portraying things incorrectly. That is not realistic. That is just offensive.

Spoiler:

Personal message stuff.

So we're going here? Alright. We're going here.

Now, I've made a promise to myself to not lose my temper so readily. I've made a promise to keep my posts positively worded. This, however? Yeah, this, the most I've felt in two years, is making me want to break that promise so much.

I never said that no one else has suffered depression. Not once. I would never say that. One of my best friends on CotH right now has gone through depression as well and I was there with him through it. I know I'm not the only one. So, I would ask that you stop being presumptive and pretend that you know what I am thinking at any given point in time, because you obviously do not.

What I said was that *if* you don't know, then you can't be told. I don't presume if you have gone through depression or not. I will say with confidence that not everyone on the server has, though. Not real depression. That's all. I would kindly request that you think before issuing more personal statements in the future, because that legitimately made me quite, quite angry.

They shouldn't be silenced.

No one is silencing anyone else.

However, this...

It's perfectly fine and understandable that a number of people on here are uncomfortable. But what about those of us that aren't? What about those of us that are uncomfortable and wish to explore such things further via this medium?.

I have to disagree with on principle. By this logic, harassment is completely okay, because only the harassed person feels uncomfortable, yes? Yet obviously that is not the case.

[c0rzilla]

I'm just not certain why we can't just think up a character conflict and roll with it instead of finding a disorder to justify it? As an example I had Maya for the longest time afraid to make friends or have physical contact (even holding hands). I know I could probably justify it with a disorder, but instead I chose it to be because she was too ashamed to show her face after the humans harmed her. No one says you aren't allowed to have a conflict, but I don't see why you need to tie it to a real life, legitimate issue that people have to face.

Some of us have disorders and we're asking very kindly not to do this. I think anyone can imagine what it'd be like to play a socially awkward or obsessive character, but maybe not what it's like to have asperger's syndrome and grow up with it and never have it go away. I'm really sorry that some people feel this is a restriction to rp, but our strive for tolerance means that some things are off limits.

Edit: Sachiko, just because we aren't letting it happen in rp doesn't mean that you have no outlet for your disorder. There are outlets and groups outside of coth. And in fact sometimes it's better to gather with other people who have it, and make that safe haven.

We seem to be at an odd impasse.

If I understand you, you are saying we're allowed to play all the symptoms in a character. But we can't use the name.

I really, really don't want to get into a "you're ableist, no you are" argument because that's horrible and childish. But, if you're going to use all the symptoms (and use them well), why can you not use the name?

It's perfectly fine and understandable that a number of people on here are uncomfortable. But what about those of us that aren't? What about those of us that are uncomfortable and wish to explore such things further via this medium?.

I have to disagree with on principle. By this logic, harassment is completely okay, because only the harassed person feels uncomfortable, yes? Yet obviously that is not the case.

I believe both you and I know we're only speaking in terms of roleplay here, and exploring complex issues only via roleplay. As a victim of real harassment (as in with guns), no I wouldn't condone real harassment. But, I'm fine with another RPer exploring it in their writing.

[Wuvvums]

Because there is more to a disorder than having symptoms. We sort of understand a disorder as being like a sickness, if we can just check off a box of the things that are "wrong" then surely it must be like having it. But it's more than that, it's an encompassing part of our lives and we live with it. And some of them, even if you try to mimic the symptoms, are still very difficult to diagnose.

But boiling it down to just symptoms risks turning it into a stereotype of what we think happens to be the disorder. Instead of symptoms why not think of conflicts? Maybe your character is extremely afraid of something, that is okay, but I don't see why we need to attach it to someone's disorder.

[SachikoMaeda]

I don't use CotH as an outlet. Hardly. I'm using my own disorder to make a point. Ah, oh well. We'll make these posts and we'll soon forget this topic happened. Like anything else controversial we'll simply push it away rather than face it.

Simply put, so long as someone researches thoroughly what they want to put on their character and don't label them, I'm happy.

Edit: I'm dropping this topic before I get frustrated. Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Xigo]

Not really having a side to take in this, I want to request that things remain civil. If you feel yourself getting hot-blooded, please do not post, calm down for a bit, then come back to the computer.

[Grakor456]

I believe both you and I know we're only speaking in terms of roleplay here, and exploring complex issues only via roleplay. As a victim of real harassment (as in with guns), no I wouldn't condone real harassment. But, I'm fine with another RPer exploring it in their writing.

Yes, but the principle is the same. Harassment is a type of communication. Harassment is subjective, because there is no objective badness there (if "objective badness" is even a real thing. And I'm not talking about threats of physical violence here.) What gives harassment its power is how one interprets it from his or her own perspective. Similarly, you are talking about conducting RP that makes other people highly uncomfortable from their particular interpretation and perspective. I am failing to see the difference. Just because one is OOC and one is IC doesn't make it alright, because then we're presuming that it's impossible to harass people OOCly through IC interactions, and we know that isn't the case.

But no one is saying "You can't explore this in RP at all ever!" That's silly. What IS being said is that extreme care and tact should be taken. Labels can be harmful with little real benefit (and really, how many characters ICly know what half of these disorder names really are, anyway?) It's a lot like rape, which is a device that CAN lead to significant drama, but also done very poorly for cheap, offensive drama and/or fetishized. Really, most of the same points apply to both.

[Sol]

Speaking as someone with a diagnosed condition of that sort that may be being discussed, I'd like to say this. I would, mainly, just be bemused if somebody tried to play a character with said condition without demonstrating a shred of research or consideration -- but not everyone is as nonchalant and thick-skinned as I am on the matter.

However, if it did make me uncomfortable, and you continued doing it despite knowing how it made me feel, that would not be cool at all.

Your freedom to RP whatever you want and have fun stops as soon as it it makes other people too uncomfortable to actually have fun. That's what this is all about: having fun. And I am fairly certain that if you were to render certain RL conditions into the in-game world -- by the letter, by the name -- that would probably make a lot of people uncomfortable. Bad RP starts when you stop other people having fun, and if you consistently do that for whatever reason, then . . . well. Bad RP.

The keys here are consideration for your fellow players and good taste in an artistic sense. You don't depict something like Alzheimers or schizophrenia in a film with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer -- if you did, you would be a laughing stock at best and an asshole at worst. Likewise, I will consider you ridiculous if you depict a mental disorder without a hint of subtlety or good taste on CotH, and part of doing away with that subtlety and good taste begins with explicitly sticking a label on it, as though you were a trained psychiatrist diagnosing your character.

I think that's the only statement of opinion I'm going to make on the matter. Would rather avoid getting pulled into any ongoing debates on a public forum thread right now for my own reasons, but I would happily discuss any of this in private if you contact me.

[Harmonic]

And I think that's what a lot of us are getting at, Sol. These things are making quite a few people feel uncomfortable, myself included. I've never thought of playing mental illnesses as a good or conductive way to construct a character, mostly because I'm riddled with those sorts of flaws in my own life.

Don't mistake this for one or two people not liking this, but---a fair chunk of people that don't feel comfortable with this stuff. I mean, it's cool that there are those that feel comfortable with their flaws and illnesses, or the terrible things they've had happen in life, but, not everyone is.

[SachikoMaeda]

Now that I've calmed myself a tad, I think I'll close my eyes and pretend all the bad doesn't happen ever.

Bad things don't cause mental trauma. Bad things happen? Nawp. Time for sunshine, rainbows, and lollipops. I'm in the boat that disorders happen. They're a real and serious issue, and no matter what, should be handled as such. Yes, people with disorders can be made uncomfortable by people portraying it wrong. Stand up. Tell them about the disorder. Make it a learning experience so they can better understand you and the disorder.

I can't possibly begin to express how ignorance about such things irritate me. And after this post I will make no others.

[hiddengecko]

While my own preferences are, admittedly, worth very little, in terms of writing about sensitive topics I value both on realism and sensitivity. It's troubling and offensive when an issue is portrayed with undue levity - be it rape, PTSD, or a genetic disorder or any kind. It's also troubling and dare I say equally offensive when writers are criticized for addressing them at all - perhaps even more so, and that's from someone who's complained repeatedly of writers being too free with their depictions of trauma.

I'm irritated when terrible things are played for laughs. I'm angered when terrible things are displayed with apathy. I'm enraged when terrible things are fetishized. Yet, despite this, I find the thought that we should simply avoid discussing them at all far more frustrating. I don't think a topic's unpleasantness or potential offensiveness warrants censorship.

Furthermore, sanitizing such potentially heated issues doesn't match the universe we write in. WoW touches on racism, war, genocide, torture, biological warfare, and even rape. Noblebrite it may be, but that sets a tone and merely implies that things will likely get better; in no way does it prevent addressing these issues. The cartoonish exaggeration of some of these topics shouldn't be used to legitimize attempts to sanitize them.

[Harmonic]

Now that I've calmed myself a tad, I think I'll close my eyes and pretend all the bad doesn't happen ever.

Bad things don't cause mental trauma. Bad things happen? Nawp. Time for sunshine, rainbows, and lollipops. I'm in the boat that disorders happen. They're a real and serious issue, and no matter what, should be handled as such. Yes, people with disorders can be made uncomfortable by people portraying it wrong. Stand up. Tell them about the disorder. Make it a learning experience so they can better understand you and the disorder.

I can't possibly begin to express how ignorance about such things irritate me. And after this post I will make no others.

If someone doesn't want to be subjected to it, they don't want to be subjected to it. It -is- hard stuff to deal wiith, it -is- real, and that's the exact reason it's not something I like to see in a place where I come to relax and have fun with. I have to deal with shit in real life that's bad and horrible, why do we have to have conditions and disorders that mimic real life or that we've put names to here?

You don't have to have a cheery always happy character, but that doesn't mean that it's this huge creative stifle when someone says that they aren't comfortable with a condition they suffer with being used in roleplay.

[mimloopen]

How to say this without making myself seem like a douche. There is a wide difference between IC and OOC. Depression is not exactly an uncommon disorder. I firmly believe that one should not get offended by what he sees ICly, whether it be depression, cruelty or lots and lots of bad language. Is it not a part of roleplayers to play a role?

Maybe someone is roleplaying a 'condition' wrong. Well feel free to enlighten them. I do agree, by the way, with avoiding using real-life medical terms in roleplay. Likely WoW either has not named them or has some whacky name for them as they do with everything. But if someone roleplaying as depression upsets you... well it's probalby because you're depressed. Exit the roleplay and return later or simply persevere. I am not a fan of one persons roleplay being stifled because another doesn't like it. You could argue 'but the condition is stiffling the roleplay of the person that doesn't like it!" Well no, that person can always find more rp, and wont have to change his persona in a server of dozens due to the discomfort of a few.

As for cartoonizing insanity... well I have no real feelings towards the topic either way. There are plenty of cases of silly insanity in WoW. Mostly with gnomes.

One might argue for me 'it's easy for you to say that when you haven't experienced it!'. I, like apparantly half the server, have also been subject to depression and work with people with depression as part of my psychology university curriculum. I also have ADD. /endopinion

[Wuvvums]

WoW touches on racism, war, genocide, torture, biological warfare, and even rape.

Wow's racism isn't like racism in real life. I would say the same for biological warfare (there is no such thing as undeath) and the war doesn't feel like the real wars we know in our life time, but the high-fantasy medieval war.

And I think this is another can of worms, but I would be highly worried if we used our rp to parody some things like the racism we find in real life. Like I hope we never go there.

[hiddengecko]

If someone doesn't want to be subjected to it, they don't want to be subjected to it. It -is- hard stuff to deal wiith, it -is- real, and that's the exact reason it's not something I like to see in a place where I come to relax and have fun with. I have to deal with shit in real life that's bad and horrible, why do we have to have conditions and disorders that mimic real life or that we've put names to here?

You don't have to have a cheery always happy character, but that doesn't mean that it's this huge creative stifle when someone says that they aren't comfortable with a condition they suffer with being used in roleplay.

I don't mean to sound unkind. I really, really don't - I've a penchant for bluntness, however, so please forgive me if I come across as such.

If you're not comfortable with a communication, or a line of communication, be it RP or a forum topic, you don't need to participate. I'm not trying to be passive-aggressive; but if a topic makes you uncomfortable it is not the responsibility of others to amend themselves and address only the topics you approve of.

Simply leave the hypothetical RP, or don't read the thread. Nobody can force it upon you. In some cases, you might ask politely that it be steered in a new direction - but this is a thread about the portrayal of serious issues in roleplay, and that's not a possibility.

I'm not advocating locking this thread; I find it quite interesting and (at risk of sounding pretentious) meaningful. So...if reading it bothers you, don't.

Sorry, back on topic now.