Consideration of Disorders and Conditions

[Grakor456]

It has taken me a while to decide how I want to word this post. Some drama has cropped up regarding this subject quite recently, but I also don't want to single anyone out. This is, at its core, not a recent issue. It's a recurring one, so I think it's best to explain why GMs as a whole tend to tell people to shy away from making "insane" or otherwise mentally disturbed characters. There are a few aspects to this, so let me try to go down through the layers of this issue. This might be a bit of a ramble, but please bear with me.

The Problem of Insanity as Comedy

I won't retell the tale word for word, but I will go to the core of the issue here. There was once a particular player on the server who, she confessed at one point in time, actually worked with the mentally ill. She made mention of her work a couple of times, in the context of why she hated it when other players would play "insane" characters. Actual insanity is not pretty. It's not funny. Yet, "insane" characters in RP are almost always played for laughs.

Now, humor is subjective. Just because a subject is serious and inherently dark, doesn't mean that it's necessarily off-limits for humor. The infamous "Rape CAN Be Funny" skit by George Carlin comes to mind. (Spoilered for obvious reasons.)

Spoiler:

Here, the late Mr. Carlin has a point, in that a lot of humor comes from the structure. However, it's also very, very easy to get that wrong and come out with something that is not only very unfunny, but also highly offensive to others. Believe me, I've seen a lot of really poorly played insane characters over my years on CotH. Now, in general, CotH has often taken the stance to err on the side of caution when these sorts of subjects come up. It also doesn't help that, many times, such characters are seen as disruptions and shameless bids for attention.

The Problem of Psychological Disorders and Conditions

But the recent problem was not due to outright insanity. It was due to something a bit more muted, the argument of whether it's possible to portray a mental or psychological disorder without it being offensive to others, and even if possible whether it should be encouraged. To illustrate my personal belief on this, let me use a personal example and talk about something that most would consider more "simple," depression.

You ask someone what depression is, and your average person would probably answer something to the effect of "when someone is sad all the time." This downplays what depression really is, and it's far more than just "I'm sad." I've had depression. It's a very dark, very crippling condition. You're not just sad, you feel like you're in a dark pit that you can't get out of. Everything seems hopeless, you're convinced that everything is going to turn out wrong, and even if something does go right, it's just there to taunt you and make the inevitable badness in the future even more crushing. You don't want to get up in the morning because you don't see the point. Everything feels hollow and empty, and interactions with others feel pointless. And most damning of all, even if you could be happy, you don't want to, because you feel worthless, utterly crushed, and you believe that you don't even deserve to be happy. And even with that, I don't think I accurately conveyed what my experiences with depression were really like, because mere words cannot describe what a terrible, awful thing it really is.

My point is this: if you haven't experienced it yourself, then you don't know, and there's no way to tell you. I would hesitate to even trust a trained psychologist to RP it well. You can know the symptoms, but that doesn't mean you really know what it is like to live through them.

Does that mean you should never touch the subjects at all?

Not necessarily, but they need to be handled with extreme care. Research helps, sure, but you want my biggest piece of advice? Avoid labels. Like the plague. If you want a character that is depressed, or traumatized, or questionably autistic, or whatever, look at symptoms, think about them, but never describe your character with absolute terms that he or she has this thing or other. That just invites trouble and hurt feelings. Be mindful that some people on here may really have such and such disorder. They may not like it if you go playing pretend that you have it, too.

Also, remember...this is high fantasy. This is noble-bright fantasy. This is Warcraft. Not everyone wants to incorporate these terrible things in their RP. They shouldn't really be expected to.

[Krent]

I understand where you're coming from, and I understand your point. When role playing any sort of concept, whether it be in regards to a mental condition, gender construction, sexual orientation or economic background, stereotyping through labels is something that must be avoided at all costs. We've had so many threads detailing the importance of this concept that I don't feel we need to go over it again.

That being said, I'm afraid that this post may serve more harm than good. Not only does it serve to contradict many of your own, and other previous GM threads (threads like this, this, and this), but it also hampers RP more than it does to help it. What do I mean, exactly?

For awhile now, there have been multiple threads made by individuals calling for more "realistic RP." Threads upon threads made by people, calling for players to act less "heroic" and more "realistic." Threads arguing to control people's approach to fantasy, and take more consideration into the "weight of the world," and think more about the "consequences of their actions" and the "impact of their choices."

For as long as I've remembered, players and GM's alike have made thread after thread of "THIS IS WHAT EVERYONE IS DOING WRONG WITH RP" topics, all arguing to make us more contemplative of the world around us.

Yet, it seems like every time a player actually tries to take into account the realism of psychology, the after-effects of trauma, or the historical context of the events that the lore of Warcraft is based off of, they get chastized. Put-down. Told things like "Azeroth is NOT REAL LIFE" and "this is a fantasy world" and "X Race =/= HUMAN."

It's a contradiction. A huge contradiction. Because on one hand, we're all arguing for things to be more realistic. Yet, when a player decides to explore the real topics that shape individuals and historical atrocity, they're told to stop. They're told that they are RPing "wrong," and being too "serious," and warned not to make an issue over it because people might get offended.

Which I can't agree with.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of people RP'ing super-idealized, flawless characters who are able to go through a hundred battles and not have any mental or physical damage from it. I'm tired of people ignoring the historical context of the real world events that shape the cultures and lore of Warcraft, thinking that Internment camps weren't all that bad and that genocide is something that a character can shrug off. I'm tired of seeing characters down entire fifths of whiskey and other substances on a nightly basis without any debilitating consequences because "lol he just liekz 2 get fukked up XD."

In other words, I want players to explore this space more. I explore it all the time with my characters. Yes, it isn't something that players should do lightly, yes they need a certain degree of caution when doing it, and yes, it isn't something that they should stereotype or confine into labels. But, from the tone of this post, it seems like you're putting down all RP'rs who try to do this.

I'm sitting here, wondering, "well what is it? Everyone keeps yelling at one another to make things more 'realistic,' and it doesn't get more realistic than this."

War is not a good thing.

It is not happy. It is not fun. It is not something that we should glorify. There's a reason why all of the ultra-militarized Empires of the world crumbled into ruins. There's a reason why modern society has conceptualized the concept of "limited warfare," with things like the Geneva Convention and other such legislation--and many reasons why such concepts are constantly called into question during contemporary military conflicts.

Some of us are aware of that fact, and want to call it into question of our RP. Can we really be blamed for it? For taking the fantasy world into serious consideration?

I'm not saying you're wrong, Grak. Only that, those of us who decide to explore the territory that you're warning against do approach it, carefully. We do take things into account, we do know of the dangers and possibilities it causes. We don't do it just to "be different," or "edgy," or "comedic," as people suggest.

We do it because it's a part of the world. Real or fantasized.

Spoiler:

What? Expecting a J-Pop video? TOO BAD! Speaking personally here.

I've been meaning to say this to you for awhile. Only because you've mentioned it so many times before.

Grak.

You're not the only person on this server to have experienced depression. You're not the only person who feels alienated, isolated, ostracized and alone. You're not the only person who has had to deal with some pretty terrible shit.

Yes. The experience of any human life is completely subjective. No one really knows anything "until they've been there," as you've said. But I get the general feeling that you assume that you think no one else has been where you've been, no one else is feeling what you do.

And while it's true in exactness, I can tell you it isn't. From personal experience, I can tell you that isn't the case.

Whether or not you wanna believe me is your own damn choice.

But, y'know, you ever wonder why Krent has no feedback posts? Why Krent hasn't made a post in the "Absences" section of the forum, even though he disappears for months at end?

Because I don't feel like any of you on this server really gives a f**k. About what I'm working on, what I'm dealing with, what I'm doing--I feel like it's not worth sharing. Not worth posting about. Or at least, that's what I've come to understand. To think.

Sure, everyone seems to love me, for some odd reason. I get a whole rainbow of colors in likes on all my posts. But does anyone actually know me? Nah. I think there's like, only three people on COTH that really know what's going on with me. And I'm not in any hurry with letting other people privvy on that, 'cause it just ain't important.

The point is--don't ever assume other people haven't ever "been there," in regards to depression.

We're all kind of fucked up, here.

I guess that's what keeps us all together.

[ImagenAshyun]

Thanks for this, Grak. As a person who has worked with special needs children all my life and a sufferer of different mood disorders, I am especially grateful. I have repeated the points over and over again on the issues regarding RPing out disorders and conditions. Very rarely people treat them as they are--facts of life, not traits to be exploited for humor (or even drama).

Personally, I do find some fulfillment in RPing out disorders and conditions, but not for the purposes of exploiting humor and drama. When I roleplay Dino, who suffers muscular atrophy on his legs, I got to understand what lengths the children at the foster home I worked at went through just to go across the floor to get to their wheelchairs. In that regard, it's true "role" playing--you are in the individual's shoes and walking their paths of life.

However, as much as possible, I will only do physical ailments; mental is another story altogether, and thin ice not always worth exploring. Some mental conditions are RPable, but only those whom the player has true understanding, not just the textbook definition. More often than not, the players have no idea how to RP a person with anti-social personality disorder as studied in the DSM-IV, and I despise it when they go by the textbook definition just to have a villain.

[Harmonic]

I think we all just need to stop.

This is really uncomfortable.

Edit: And this protects those that have gone through these things and are -not- comfortable for it. I would elaborate further, but I just.. I really hate this topic. I loathe it. To the point where I have a hard time conveying my feelings without getting angry at others.

I'm leaving it at that.

[Wuvvums]

We're not saying that people can't have traumatized characters, or the feelings of fear, anxiety, and worry that there's danger and war all around. But there's a difference between feeling trauma, and yanking a real world disorder like PTSD, sorry to say. I'd be uncomfortable if someone tried to play off asperger's or autism, I just don't see why you can't take some of the tendencies (like obsessiveness) and play off a personality trait rather than lifting a whole disorder that can't be understood unless someone lives it.

It's hard to articulate but.. roleplay here, while it can be an art, and insightful and transformative, is still playing pretend. It's still a game, and still having fun. And unlike real life, you can walk away from it, you can't do that with a disorder. So I think people sort of take that for granted, and it can feel trivializing when placed into a game. x:

[c0rzilla]

We're not saying that people can't have traumatized characters, or the feelings of fear, anxiety, and worry that there's danger and war all around. But there's a difference between feeling trauma, and yanking a real world disorder like PTSD, sorry to say. I'd be uncomfortable if someone tried to play off asperger's or autism, I just don't see why you can't take some of the tendencies (like obsessiveness) and play off a personality trait rather than lifting a whole disorder that can't be understood unless someone lives it.

Because those tendencies are part of a system with a name. You don't feel trauma, you feel the results of that trauma. These tendencies do not exist in a vacuum, independent of each other. To not name the entire system that ends up being a disorder is a tad...fearful? I'm not sure what the point of the avoidance is.

It's hard to articulate but.. roleplay here, while it can be an art, and insightful and transformative, is still playing pretend. It's still a game, and still having fun. And unlike real life, you can walk away from it, you can't do that with a disorder. So I think people sort of take that for granted, and it can feel trivializing when placed into a game. x:

It is playing pretend, and it is a game. And playing pretend and a game is one of the best (and sometimes the only) way to learn about things if you don't have X disorder, or system of symptoms.

You might apply the same logic you're presenting to people who write these things into their stories and novels. Should they not be allowed to write such since they don't possess the disorder themselves?

It's perfectly fine and understandable that a number of people on here are uncomfortable. But what about those of us that aren't? What about those of us that are uncomfortable and wish to explore such things further via this medium? I'll admit right now, were I to speak my voice would shake. My arms are trembling.

Yeah, I agree, you can't just toss something you cherry-picked out of the DSM into a profile. But there are people on the server that use named disorders and use them well. They name them.

They shouldn't be silenced.

[flammos200]

It's hard to articulate but.. roleplay here, while it can be an art, and insightful and transformative, is still playing pretend. It's still a game, and still having fun. And unlike real life, you can walk away from it, you can't do that with a disorder. So I think people sort of take that for granted, and it can feel trivializing when placed into a game. x:

See, the problem I have with that is that it's the same with death, genocide, rape, or any other such subject. It's the exact same thing, the exact same trivialization happens. Death is never a beautiful, clean thing. In fact, it's quite horrible to behold. As someone who's gone through recent deaths among people close and far, I know just how powerful a thing it is.

So the problem isn't limited to disorders and mental conditions. It's about everything. Handicaps, death, genocide, pregnancy, rape, -everything- should be treated with equal amounts of respect and care or better yet, not at all, if one lacks the maturity or research to properly portray it.

For the longest time, I have been a proponent of people being able to properly portray concepts in role-playing. I believe people can make all sorts of things work if they have done the right research. A certain someone's role-played a Tauren pregnancy spectacularly, for instance, despite not having been in such a situation(obviously) himself. A good handful of unnamed individuals have portrayed mental disorders expertly. Some people treat the genocide inflicted upon the High Elven race with respect. Some CoTHites consider Death a -very- meaningful and important part of existence, and treat it with deference and portray it for what it is.

TL;DR: It's not just mental disorders. Treat everything with respect. After all, it's the #1 rule.

[SachikoMaeda]

People will always RP what they want to RP.

Mental disorders are a common thing in our world here and now. Perhaps there's more behind the "loldisorder". Maybe they're seriously trying to portray it. Maybe they know someone with the disorder. Maybe they actually have the disorder? RPers aren't the only ones who mislabel and simply don't portray a disorder correctly.

There are many instances where we simply read what the other person does as a joke. I take my characters seriously a majority of the time, yet they're almost always read as a joke by the community. I find this more frustrating than a labelled illness.

Do I like when people use depression for sadness? No. I've dealt with horrid depression for years. I also don't like countless misconceptions and improperly portrayed mental illnesses, physical disabilities, and other conditions that are normal (see: pregnancy). Yet I'll nod my head and go along with it. RP is RP. I've learned to make myself a little wall and allow what they're going to do. That way I don't feel I'm going mad from all the things I want to correct or change.

[Harmonic]

This is offensive. If it's offensive, it should stop.

Please. No, really. Please.

[Wuvvums]

Some things, even if they are treated respectfully, are just too sensitive to step into in some communities. We try to pride ourselves as being a community that is open-minded and tolerant, especially towards people who are of a different race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and hopefully those with mental disorders. The feeling of disregard for people with mental disabilities who are pointing out the discomfort in this... feels somewhat implicitly ableist, and I know saying that may open up a can of worms. This is a setting where we could avoid a lot of the things that would make certain minority groups uncomfortable*, and I hope we can have it remain that way.

*By what I'm saying is that the racism on coth isn't like the real world racism, and political tensions aren't like the real world. I don't see why the mental disorders need to be like the real world ones either.

[Nikodemos]

Is this another topic I'm going to keep my thoughts to myself on? Why yes, it is.

[Spiralin]

"Please do research on certain mental and physical disorders you wish to use in roleplay, should the GMs be called, and see that it is stereotyping and/or portrayed incorrectly the GMs will have a respectful talk with you and figure out some form of agreement. Thank you."

Would probably be the best way to put it, in my opinion.

[SachikoMaeda]

I'm gonna go on a limb and say this.

Not talking about it is an issue.

Not talking about my depression made it worse.

Not talking about it will make it worse.

[Wuvvums]

I'm just not certain why we can't just think up a character conflict and roll with it instead of finding a disorder to justify it? As an example I had Maya for the longest time afraid to make friends or have physical contact (even holding hands). I know I could probably justify it with a disorder, but instead I chose it to be because she was too ashamed to show her face after the humans harmed her. No one says you aren't allowed to have a conflict, but I don't see why you need to tie it to a real life, legitimate issue that people have to face.

Some of us have disorders and we're asking very kindly not to do this. I think anyone can imagine what it'd be like to play a socially awkward or obsessive character, but maybe not what it's like to have asperger's syndrome and grow up with it and never have it go away. I'm really sorry that some people feel this is a restriction to rp, but our strive for tolerance means that some things are off limits.

Edit: Sachiko, just because we aren't letting it happen in rp doesn't mean that you have no outlet for your disorder. There are outlets and groups outside of coth. And in fact sometimes it's better to gather with other people who have it, and make that safe haven.

[Rini]

I was going to write up a big post analysing both sides of this controversial argument, but I honestly agree with Rensin in saying this should be dropped like a hot coal, the thread itself perhaps even locked.



Edit: To clarify, there's a point where posting something subjective can inspire a thrilling debate or attempt to snuff out a behaviour that is undesired, however, this appears to have already gone too far into a counter-productive direction.