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Grakor Grumbles: Custom Server Lore
#16
(07-21-2013, 11:38 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: - Taking races that have been ignored in canon lore (belves and draenei especially) and making them a bit more relevant.

Are you kidding? Belves aplenty in WoTLK! Argent Tournament was practically Red Green versus Blue.

In Cata, they didn't get that much limelight. I actually didn't mind, seeing as how WoTLK was "Hey guys, high elves! Look, high elves! Did we mention that they're high elves yet?"

Too much of WoW is elves. Draenei have been ignored, after Burning Crusade they sort of just... disappeared. Tauren have also sort of been ignored, all we got was that Cairne died and Tauren don't like Garrosh because he's a baby-eating maniac.

I don't understand why Blizzard always had to paint Garrosh as that handsome devil, twiddling his moustache as put a tied-up Night Elf on the Deeprun Tram. He was a nationalist, he felt that Orcs should come first.
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#17
Disclaimer: I don't know if Xigo or JV are speaking directly to me or the like, I'm just working off of their posts to clarify my position a bit.

For the record, I don't want to exactly -change- what we're given either. "Fixing" Garrosh would take an entire rewrite and I don't think that's going to happen, nor that most would want to see it.

To better illustrate what I'm talking about for a sec, I'll throw my particular pet peeve of how Cata/MoP lore kind of ruined the experience for me: Blizzard beating orcs to death with the villain bat. It's not just Garrosh here...in fact, Garrosh is the least of the problems I have with this. A lot of it is Blizzard wanting to tell a particular story and not having the skill (or perhaps just not the inclination) to properly convey that story.

Example: in one of the novels, I believe, it's mentioned that Garrosh is having dissenters openly assassinated. This is not really mentioned in the game, and has a huge impact on how the orcs are perceived. It's the difference between the orcs being a suppressed race, working for an evil dictator because they have no choice under threat of death...and the entire race just turning evil for no reason. One must also presume that there are rebellious orcs that flee and fight against Garrosh, etc. but the game doesn't do the greatest job of really conveying that. What the game shows us are orcish firing squads killing troll rebels. Now, this is Mists related and I think that's where the problems are strongest, but it's the clearest example of what I'm talking about for clarification purposes.

And we can do stuff like that. Tell the stories of the growing fear and oppression in Orgrimmar. Of the good orcs (and forsaken on that other front!) fighting the good fight despite the evil over their heads. Of the Alliance that may not always have the moral high ground on their side, and occasionally have to make the tough decisions. So on.

That's just my take.
Have you hugged an orc today?
- I am not tech support. Please do not contact me regarding technical issues. -
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#18
Well, in my case, at least, it was my thoughts on custom server lore. You did ask for people's thoughts on it and "things like this". :P Just wanted to put my feelings out there on the whole thing, because I haven't before. It wasn't a personal message.

And, Vol'jin does mention things like that if you talk to him during the Rebellion stuff and you're an orc. Also, to clarify, the game shows Kor'kron firing squads. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's pretty much it, isn't it? All of the quests are to kill Kor'kron, you take Razor Hill from the Kor'kron, you liberate Sen'jin from the Kor'kron, the daily quests are to sabotage the Kor'kron...and I believe there are some orc NPCs in the Darkspear Rebellion. There are tauren and blood elves, as well. They push the "This is the Kor'kron doing all this crap and we all know the Kor'kron are Garrosh's hand."

As for not getting the specific details across, I agree. But I'll reiterate the "game vs. RPworld" thing, as there's a lot more storytelling room in a novel than there is in an MMO where all content is optional; it's probably beyond the scope they're aiming for. The stuff with the persecutions being only done by Kor'kron is about as good as they can do to show that it's not all orcs jumping onto the Garrosh hatetrain. So, yes, filling in details like that would be fantastic, as it's realistic, more than likely happening, but simply not in Blizzard's best (financial) interests to devote resources to.

There is, also, a Darkspear rebel that runs through Orgrimmar shouting about the rebellion and is shot by a Kor'kron Overseer, to note, which I think is actually a pretty cool touch.
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#19
Hm, looking back at the posts Maulbane, Xigo and JVNemesis made, I think I may have expressed myself poorly. I don't mean to say that we ought to change what we already have, but rather add to what is already there. If we make things happen in the world around them, we can give other players the opportunity to get some insight into Garrosh's deeds, both good and ill, and from there shape their opinions of the new Warchief - and the Horde he rules. I don't mean to say that I want to tell a different story than Blizzard, in the sense that I want to tear everything they've created down and build anew, but I want to tell more stories to build on what Blizzard's already given us.

Thing is, while I do think focus needs to be put on the players, many of the Lore characters hold a lot of power. Their decisions influence the lives of the people they rule - that is to say, the players - and the people they rule form opinions on many things based on this. The Lore characters are figureheads for their factions and races, and are important in shaping the picture of them. The Lore characters are ultimately part of the background in the picture we're all painting together. Take note; the background. Disagreements between player characters regarding the decisions of Lore characters can be great material to work with.

@JVNemesis Watchers against Watchers sounds like a beautiful storyline. I once had a similar thought myself. :D

EDIT: To use a direct example, that Darkspear Rebel JV mentions? Doing more stuff like that, making things happen in people's RP would be awesome. I mean, imagine people's reaction if a troll runs by you on the street shouting, and suddenly he's shot. That, and similar scenarios, are things that can affect our characters because of the decisions of Lore characters.
[Image: 6RpTZgI.gif]
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#20
Mists is one of those expansions that I simply wish I could forget about simply because of all the dumb things that are part of it, and it is for all of those reasons you listed, Grakor. Cata is not so bad for me. Garrosh has some good moments, Varian has some bad moments. They are both happy to wage a war that Matthew fully supports. The only thing that upsets me is the fact that the Horde is usually the ones winning all the battles (please don't pull up your Alliance moral victory card) and the ones actually gaining land, while the Alliance... loses bases, and their victories only count for their side because the Horde has quests where the Alliance loses. That's awful, but I was still okay with Cata.

I would love minor custom lore. Nothing that would ultimately change the story of how Warcraft goes (Matthew still has to have his JUSTICE King and you still have to have your NUKE 'EM ALL Warchief), but I would love it if the races had a chance to be better and worse than how Cata portrayed them, depending on the event chain we ran. Humans capture orcs in Southern Barrens and they are sent to labor for the good of the Alliance? Okay. Orcs realize that a platoon of Blackrocks are going to descend on Redridge and Lakeshire and fight them off to protect the innocent civilians? Bring it on. A group of Forsaken go on a march to prove that their race isn't all monsters that want to plague anything living. Yes!

I don't want to confuse new players, but I also don't want to deal with the grimdark orcs and noblebright humans.

Also, if we get to Mists, can we pleeeeeease fix up the Trials of the High King so Varian is the one learning instead of teaching? I'll... I'll make an orc if you do it!
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#21
Custom Lore? I mean, come on. You know my stance on this already.

Do it.

For the love of everything do it please.

So long as the changes are kept minor where a simple list can be made keeping track, then most can be played off as IC mistakes and not something huge like...joining the server only to find out that blood elves are their own faction and everything, -everything- you know about WoW lore is wrong.

No matter how we swing it, Garrosh is doing to be a D-bag, but maybe...just maybe...we can give him as a lore character more defining moments that make it look like he's actually falling at a pace rather than just one day waking up and going "I'm going to genocide the trolls next!". M-maybe we can feel -bad- about what's going to happen to him if it's swung right ICly? You know...small things like that...

MoP lore is horrible for the vanilla races. Blood Elves and Dreanei have not been touched. No, they get nothing in WOTLK. They get a tent at best. Then Quel'danas and then another group of tents and a new daily questing hub! Making them even just the slightest amount of relevant again would be lovely.

I think a bit of custom stuff will do the server well in the long run. What blizzard fails to explain, we can.

Edit: AND NO 'NEW LIFE'. I will choke whichever blizzard writer did that with their own headphone wire.
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#22
(07-22-2013, 08:40 AM)Reigen Wrote:
Edit: AND NO 'NEW LIFE'. I will choke whichever blizzard writer did that with their own headphone wire.

...I typed "WoW New Life" into Google and I got a quest about planting seeds in Stonetalon. I get the sense this is not the New Life you're referring to.

Elaborate?
[Image: tumblr_nfm4t0FZcT1rtcd58o1_r1_500.gif]
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#23
(07-22-2013, 08:43 AM)c0rzilla Wrote:
(07-22-2013, 08:40 AM)Reigen Wrote:
Edit: AND NO 'NEW LIFE'. I will choke whichever blizzard writer did that with their own headphone wire.

...I typed "WoW New Life" into Google and I got a quest about planting seeds in Stonetalon. I get the sense this is not the New Life you're referring to.

Elaborate?

Watch the ending cinematic for Cata. When Deathwing dies and the Aspects lose their powers.

Quote:Blood Elves and Dreanei have not been touched.

Blood elves get some nice stuff in Mists, I think. Lor'themar gets to take on a more active role.
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#24
While I would love and welcome the chance to have some Custom Server Lore, I think it should be handled in a separate way. What do I mean by that? I mean by letting players, guilds, what-have-you go out and resume some form of Conquest RP as long as it doesn't displace something major. I don't think that Custom Server Lore should fall into the confines of "Well, we didn't really care much for what Blizzard did with [X], so we are going to alter it to where it has very few repercussions in-game."

Conquest RP has always been, in my opinion, one of the best forms of Custom Lore. The Player gets to decide where they want to take over, with reasonable judgement on the part of the GMs, and then they launch a series of events to take said place over. This way, everyone has more desire and want to RP outside of Stormwind, Silvermoon, and Booty Bay/Ratchet. In this way we find custom bits of Lore that players can say "Oh yeah, you bet I helped claim that for the Horde/Alliance!" And besides... everyone starts out at 60 now and cannot level their characters past 60. They have no reason to do any quests in lower or higher level areas. Maybe for some of the dailies, sure, if that is still something people do.

However with that said, I do think that doing certain events for certain races to clarify a bit might be in order. However, I will say this: The Forsaken attacked Gilneas for the same reason they attacked Hillsbrad. They need more soldiers on account that they cannot reproduce in the traditional means. At the time, Gilneas was neutral with few ties to the Alliance. So Sylvanas wanted to attack on the basis of needing more soldiers (I don't think she could have foreseen such a large population turned into Worgen) and Garrosh wanted an Orcish Port large enough to sustain invasion forces.


Just my two cents and bit of lore I picked up doing the Cata quests.
Do you have what it takes to join the Fighting Blues?
Do you have what it takes to defend your homeland?
Will you stand up in defense of the innocent? The weak?
Will you stand up in defense of Justice and the Law?

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVE3uy8TjirssygDEKMi2...Ia13_WYQpw]



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#25
First of all, let's not get this thread sidetracked with talk of conquest RP. It won't happen. I hate to be so blunt on that front, but outside of custom areas that we've made ourselves (which people were really free to do whatever with ) we're not going to have any sort of conquest going on. The reasons for that were explained in a different post.

(07-22-2013, 09:20 AM)Thoradin Wrote: However with that said, I do think that doing certain events for certain races to clarify a bit might be in order. However, I will say this: The Forsaken attacked Gilneas for the same reason they attacked Hillsbrad. They need more soldiers on account that they cannot reproduce in the traditional means. At the time, Gilneas was neutral with few ties to the Alliance. So Sylvanas wanted to attack on the basis of needing more soldiers (I don't think she could have foreseen such a large population turned into Worgen) and Garrosh wanted an Orcish Port large enough to sustain invasion forces.

And I don't want to get too side-tracked on this front, but I will comment on this because the story justification given isn't actually any justification at all. "We need a port" is silly because the Forsaken clearly already have ports: they managed to field a giant navy during the events of WotLK. Similarly, attacking a neutral force, one of which was known in the past for having quite the fearsome military, for "reinforcements" when they're already struggling with enemies closer to home seems like a very poor military tactic to me.

It's kind of telling when people bring up the invasion of Gilneas ICly to Forsaken, the best justification given is usually "Ah, er, well, Garrosh told us to!"
Have you hugged an orc today?
- I am not tech support. Please do not contact me regarding technical issues. -
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#26
(07-23-2013, 02:01 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: First of all, let's not get this thread sidetracked with talk of conquest RP.

I'm hoping that this is just referring to Alliance versus Horde. Surely the occasional mob-stomping expedition would be both easy on a technical level and infinitely justified ICly, right? When it comes to stuff like Jangalode mine and the Bael'dun Digsite (prior to all the Dwarves getting killed).




Move him into the sun—
Gently its touch awoke him once,
At home, whispering of fields half-sown.
Always it woke him, even in France,
Until this morning and this snow.
If anything might rouse him now
The kind old sun will know.

Think how it wakes the seeds,—
Woke, once, the clays of a cold star.
Are limbs, so dear-achieved, are sides,
Full-nerved—still warm—too hard to stir?
Was it for this the clay grew tall?
—O what made fatuous sunbeams toil
To break earth’s sleep at all?
[Image: 62675bf4fd.jpg] [Image: 0e7357dcfe.jpg]
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#27
Conquest is another matter all together, I suggest putting that in a new thread and leaving this for the intended topic. If you want to discuss conquest RP, make a new thread to garner opinions there.
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