Grakor Grumbles: Sexual RP Policy

[Grakor456]

So, before I go to bed, I figured I'd hammer this post out and start getting opinions, since this come up rather recently.

Currently, the rules state that any RP is fine so long as everyone is okay with it. Now, we do have a caveat with that in that we request ERP ("erotic" roleplay) and RP with extreme violent imagery to be put into party chat, in order to avoid offending people or swamping them with imagery that they don't want to see.

Here is where things get tricky...where is that line drawn?

We have stated that you can't roll a prostitute/"escort" character because they can serve as ERP magnets. At the same time, we've just kind of allowed people to do pretty risque things in public games of Truth or Dare, or (and I'm sorry Rosencrat for using this as an example, no offense is intended but it's relevant and interesting for discussion) creating lust-inducing potions/drinks. Is this hypocritical? At what point does the RP need to be shuffled into party chat?

Now, for me personally, I don't mind the above so long as it doesn't get into actual sex acts. Similarly, nudity in RP doesn't bother me and I wouldn't urge for party chat until we start delving into loving descriptions of our characters' genitals. That said, I'm not the best barometer for this kind of thing because I am quite difficult to "squick" out and I have a very high tolerance for sexual imagery. Even the things I would urge people to put into party wouldn't phase me, I'd just consider it common courtesy. On the other hand, it has been rightfully pointed out that this isn't for my benefit, it's for the benefit of minors or people that feel uncomfortable around sexual shenanigans.

So, my question to you all: where do you think the lines should be drawn? Do you think we should be more strict on this? Do you think that prostitute/etc. characters should be allowed? Where do you stand on this issue?

[Harmonic]

So, my question to you all: where do you think the lines should be drawn? Do you think we should be more strict on this? Do you think that prostitute/etc. characters should be allowed? Where do you stand on this issue?

I'll admit when it comes to this, I've adopted bit of a loose policy. I've had Rensin comically nude a few times in the past (Notably, when he once fought a bear in the buff, and another time when he accidentally was entered in a bikini contest thinking it was something else), so I've adopted the same as you Grak---certain things are okay as long as they don't go into detail.

I'll be the first to admit---the events where people switch their genders always make me a little uneasy. Again, sorry to Rosen, but, they do. It's one of those situations where it's less about the sexual deviance (Which people talk about for a long time after), but more about my own feelings about people playing characters that they aren't suited for.

Sometimes, people tend to over-sexualize the gender opposite of them. On CoTH, I've seen men play women this way, and WOMEN play MEN this way, both times it's excruciating for me to watch admittedly, only because there was once a time where I was that guy. "Oh, I know what I'll do. I'll play a female character, and make her right! Totally won't make her my own little fantasy." Then, I somehow end up with a character in little more than a bikini made of chainmail. Soooo.




Again, this stuff is my own personal feelings. I know some people play women/men well when they are actually a man/woman on the other side. Sometimes, I can tell right away, especially when it comes to that word we all toss around quietly like noone knows it exists, "Lulzbian".


Long story short... no, hookers shouldn't be allowed. That would open the avenue for some real weird shit. Should we be more strict? God no. We are strict on EVERYTHING. Tell 'em to quit if they go into detail about the boobies and manjunks, or if it's more of an "IC appalling" thing, make them have consequences ICly. Send 'em to the stocks for a bit till they realize the merits of clothing.



Edit: Good god, added the comma between "NO" and "HOOKERS", otherwise that sentence would have meant something ENTIRELY different. Don't think we should be allowed to roll prostitutes. Do they exist? Probably. Do we need to play them? Nope. Might as well put a sign on the server that says "GETCHA ERP HURR".

[Reese]

Not only was Gregg nude once, but he had his clothes forcibly removed via burning by an evil and extremely stick-in-the-mud-y spirit. (They just hate it when people use their lawns for bathrooms, don't they?)

I personally don't mind small stuff like that in Truth or Dare. When should it go into the party? I couldn't say, whenever the group collectively agrees they've crossed the line. Where is the line? That's something else we have to decide. I personally think that nudity at the very least is not a crime to RP, as for blatantly sexual acts with sexual intentions? That's a whole lot easier to spot and judge. It's give and take with the smaller stuff.

But hey, at the end of the day, what do I even know? I'm tired and talking opinions out my buttocks.

[Geoni]

I think that sex is a difficult topic to avoid sometimes, and that it is an acceptable thing ICly to talk about (I mean, what would Goblins use to tease their friends if they couldn't talk about sex?). However, I think where the line should be drawn is the descriptiveness of it.

My opinions:

Nudity: It's okay so long as it's not sexual in nature, and if imagery surrounding the genitalia is avoided. That's not to say characters should walk around naked all the time!

...I'm going to catch some heat for this next one...

Characters talking about sex: Absolutely okay, so long as it doesn't get too descriptive. However, players should always feel comfortable with telling others to tone it down if it gets beyond an understandable comfort zone, and this is when things should be brought into party for the respect of the player requesting that it be toned down or moved elsewhere.

ERP: Keep it out of game in general. CotH isn't an ERP hub and there are other places on the internet where you can take your characters if you want to do that with them. Players should NEVER force ERP on another player, and it's definitely one of those things I hate to see happen. It gets extremely awkward.

Lastly, if players want to establish that their characters have had sex (may it be for romance, baby making, or both), they should make sure that both are comfortable with this thought OOCly.

tl;dr:

At what point does the RP need to be shuffled into party chat?

When a player says that they feel uncomfortable with the sexual themes occurring during a RP. Anyone should feel comfortable requesting it be moved to party chat if it gets too descriptive and vulgar.

[Sorum]

I am on the same side. Actual intercourse should be kept in party. Nudity is alright, even so.. I'd rather not get too many details about that, it really isn't THAT needed, you know?

About the hookers and all that.. I'd rather not see them in the public RP or have ads flying around in LFG "Hooker LF ERP". I don't have a problem with them in private, let's say a particular character has a lot of money and decides to 'have fun'. WoW got books and bars. Not much else to spend your money on. In medieval times, there was a lot of sex. WoW is a bit after the medieval time but there really isn't THAT much entertainment. So I'd guess there's still a lot of sex going on. Simply not much else to do.

Sorry.. went a bit off the subject. Anyway, going back to our character, let's say he has money and he'd rather not go to a bar or read books, so he'd most likely hire a hooker to spend his money on. Now, if he really wants to RP that, then he can do it with whoever is that's willing to play the hooker. I -really- don't want to see ads like "LF hooker to ERP with" that would be horrible.. But I don't have a problem if two people that know eachother doing it.. I guess I don't care a lot about what people do in private, it isn't my business and I really shouldn't stick my nose.

[Anski]

I'm one of those people who gets so uncomfortable around sexual events that using the adjective extreme is kin to saying a world war is just another peaceful walk in the park, full of sunshine and other flowery imagery.

I don't even have mirrors in my bathroom.

Either way, I feel as though it should be the player's responsibility to understand the notion between the sexually explicit and tantalizing or humorous risque. This is a kind of social case in which each one requires a personal judgement, based on what rules have been laid out before hand. I myself can see and appreciate the difference between a joking game of Truth or Dare or Rensin's butt hair getting some fresh air, and someone being sexually explicit for the sake of their own pleasure (and possibly others) rather than the amusement and non-sexually charged entertainment of others. I feel as though by being on the server and agreeing to the rules, which if I remember correctly, players are deliberately at risk of exposing themselves to such things as a humorous explicitness, much as though buying a ticket to a film with comical nudity or other such things. However, with the current rules, I still find it acceptable that someone as squeamish as myself is entitled to the capability to request that the players engaged in such things take it to party chat. It's a matter of just polite respect.

This is a tricky situation, though, and a very interesting topic. I've self edited more in this post while writing than any other, it's hard for me to kind of lay down how I feel on such a topic in an explanation. It's a very fluid and intangible social concept to pin down. Can we really ask, how much is too much, without laying down an iron fist and creating a heavy ruleset? I fear it would reach the point where creating rules on something that necessitates an interpersonal judgement would be too heavy a weight to bear on the server population, if that makes sense. Each and every case of 'is this still amusing or is it explicit' is something that would require an intense amount of examination and discussion. I feel as though sexual RP is something that you can only really turn a partially blind eye to, because it just occurs naturally between people, aware or unaware of the ruling. If you outlaw it, it's going to cause dissent. If you let it run rampant, it may just as easily be a social decay on the server, as Rensin said.

In short, I believe the current stance is at the 'prime' standstill. These are hard questions that do not answer themselves, and I feel as though it is in the best interest of the server to leave the current rules at their median position.

As for the prostitution, it tears me inside. I'm a believer of free concepts, but at the same time I feel as though a venue is just a snowball for abuse. I'll be damned if it hasn't happened already, but to have it open? It would be interesting to see such a thing in the right hands, someone using it as a serious character concept, rather than just abusing the idea wantonly for sexual pleasure. Even if it is heavily regulated, it still will be seen by many as a detriment, especially as a social judgement of the players behind the characters. The sort of social makeup and culture of the server may be too broad for such a thing.


Unrelated to the topic at hand:

Sometimes, I can tell right away, especially when it comes to that word we all toss around quietly like noone knows it exists, "Lulzbian".

It hurts the very framework of my soul to see such a thing exists in the shadows here. :\

[Rowgen]

I personally think that the rules, as they are, are fine. However, I do believe that people ought to be reminded that jokes and such with overly sexual content is best kept in private or in the Adult Channel, and not uttered on GMI where everyone can see. I'll be frank and say that the only reason we would have to tighten in on the rules would be if people failed to take the ones we have seriously.

[Aadora]

I think people should be able to RP whatever character they want as long as it fits logically within the Warcraft universe. Characters that are based around sexual themes such as prostitutes however should be played with caution. I don't care if somebodies character in a random or event RP is a prostitute. I do not however want them to start talking about it.

Somebody playing a prostitute does not mean that people are suddenly required to get involved with this character, or that getting involved with them points towards ERP. I don't think that any character created with this intention, as the rules state, should be allowed. Everyone should have the freedom to play what character they want, but characters based around sex and ERP are not suited for being around some of the other members of this community. I knew people in the past here, may or may not still be here, who would probably love to play a prostitute because all they ever really did was ERP anyways. I don't think that's right. This server is not intended to harbor ERPers, but Warcraft RPers in general.

If you're going to ERP, keep it in party and have an interest in the rest of the server.
If you're going to play a prostitute, play them as a person, not the usual stereotype of "Ermurgurd my entire life revolves around sex!" Prostitution is a job, not a life ruling decision that makes you who you are.

And don't play the nasty prostitutes. Nobody wants a three dollar hooker.

Spoiler:

[Kirabo]

I personally think that the rules, as they are, are fine. However, I do believe that people ought to be reminded that jokes and such with overly sexual content is best kept in private or in the Adult Channel, and not uttered on GMI where everyone can see. I'll be frank and say that the only reason we would have to tighten in on the rules would be if people failed to take the ones we have seriously.

I agree with this completely. After all, it -is- just a matter of communication. Something that CotH has as a problem, especially with new guys. People are afraid to talk to each other openly, mostly because of the fear for their ideas and opinions to be rejected and criticized. Instead of trying to pinpoint these small problems like people breaking rules 1, 3 and 7, or sexual nudity, or 'grand exits', I'd really, really, -really- recommend that we try and look into the source - the communication problem we have. Hosting more OOC events where people would just meet each other would be great. Not Meet&Greet, that's not communication. That's acting, with predetermined scripts, and the GMs overseeing everything. We need actual talking, chatting, bickering over pointless rubbish while laughing about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anarchist, but I don't want this to become an Orwellian setting we write in.

[Ural]

Even the things I would urge people to put into party wouldn't phase me, I'd just consider it common courtesy.

That's what it's all about, respect.

[Maulbane]

I personally think that the rules, as they are, are fine. However, I do believe that people ought to be reminded that jokes and such with overly sexual content is best kept in private or in the Adult Channel, and not uttered on GMI where everyone can see. I'll be frank and say that the only reason we would have to tighten in on the rules would be if people failed to take the ones we have seriously.

I agree with this completely. After all, it -is- just a matter of communication. Something that CotH has as a problem, especially with new guys. People are afraid to talk to each other openly, mostly because of the fear for their ideas and opinions to be rejected and criticized. Instead of trying to pinpoint these small problems like people breaking rules 1, 3 and 7, or sexual nudity, or 'grand exits', I'd really, really, -really- recommend that we try and look into the source - the communication problem we have. Hosting more OOC events where people would just meet each other would be great. Not Meet&Greet, that's not communication. That's acting, with predetermined scripts, and the GMs overseeing everything. We need actual talking, chatting, bickering over pointless rubbish while laughing about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anarchist, but I don't want this to become an Orwellian setting we write in.

Warning: Maulbane's pretty bad at posting. Take any posts he makes longer than two lines with some salt.

Maybe it's just been too long for me, but I can no longer relate to sentiments like this. 'specially the usage of 'Orwellian', or really any kind of post that refers to some kind of stiflin' blanket of fear among the community. I did used to sympathise with/believe those kinds of tales (the spooky campfire legends of cliques, cults of personality, what have you), but after a while I realised that it's silly. I think that the only thing that CotH has been guilty of is stuffiness, but even that's easily fixed - by the players. The GMs have tirelessly made threads (it's probably like, a 1:10 ratio of 'we're human, guys!' threads to any other thread) trying to coax people out of those kind of suppositions, but it doesn't seem to have caught on to the degree they've wanted.

Tying in to the discussion of eRP, I can honestly say I've never dabbled in it. I once got close, though. I think the core of the problem is that there should be defined boundaries between what is eRP and what is using sexuality in the context of character development, but there really aren't. Almost all RP communities slide to one side or the other - becoming hedonistic as heck or shutting out most (if not all) flagrant sexual behavior IC, be it with rules or just general stigma. Were I (more appropriately, were I forced) to pick one or the other, it'd probably be the second, but it's still not a solution to the problem, is it? I've always defined eRP as kind of extraneous - it's the before and after that has significance to a character (coming from my zero experience, I guess).

Were we in a perfect world where everybody could do these touchy subjects properly, I think eRP and more explicit sexuality could be more accepted. Prostitutes exist in far greater quantities than prestige classes, after all. The problem is how unlikely they are to be RP'd properly - the few characters under this umbrella who wouldn't have harrowing trauma (that would all but cripple their ability to interact normally) would definitely not be sitting in Booty Bay having some pleasant small talk. It's an occupation with such little potential for escape or even movement that it would not only be difficult to RP properly but also would be difficult tofind RP for (outside of what I'm assuming everybody thought after reading that, which comes back to the 'extraneous' thing I was saying).

At the end of the day, the real victim of the far-reaching stigma of sex in RP are the more dialed back characters. In real life, people use their sexuality in different ways. Promiscuity is a real thing, almost a cornerstone of human behavior, but it's often (in some cases rightfully) associated with Moon Guard two-dimensionality. This is one of the cases where the calls of 'CotH is stifling!' may have some footing, but once again, the players have all the power to change it. The Gnomish Special Forces were hardly angels, yet they're some of the best remembered characters 'round. Maybe you'll have to risk being lambasted in a few private chats for having a character that wears pants a few sizes too tight, but maybe it'll spice some RPs up.

See? I'm paving the way by making a post that probably stinks harder than manure, but I'll take that bullet to one day have posts that don't erratically skip around or fail to have a central point.

[Piken]

Like many others who have posted, I really don't have a -problem- with seeing things, as I'll just shrug them off and have my character react accordingly. But I will say that I don't always like seeing people being overly sexual only because I tend to think "I wonder what the NPCs would think of that.." and no one ever seems to take that into consideration. (DON'T FORGET THE NPCS. THEIR VOICES MUST BE HEARD) DONE BEING OFF TOPIC. But as others have said, it really comes down to respect for your fellow players, as well as just being.. aware. If you're starting to roleplay out something that may not exactly be 'everyone-friendly'(violence, sexual jokes, etc.) then just throw it out there to those around "Hey, do you guys mind if whoever starts doing whatever?" or "This violent stuff is about to go down, anyone got beef, yo? Yes? Okay, we'll take it to party chat, like respectable gentlemen." It's our duty as players to be aware of others as well as ourselves. ..Yeah. /lazy fistpump

As for 'prostitute' characters.. I personally wouldn't like to see them about. Again, it comes down to me not really caring too much, but I see the potential in it spiraling out of control and while some may see it as an interesting take on a character you could easily just say that they've had to do some bad things in the past or something. Doesn't have to be so out there, ya know?

(Lookit all dem commas)

And just to say, I agree with what Rowgen said completely.

And I may have squee'd a little at a certain mention by Maulbane. >.>

So yeah, there's my take on it?

[Psychyn]

So, as I'm reading all this.. I'm going to myself 'Do I really have a set opinion on things like this' and while I'm not sure if I have that, I've always been pretty open about whether or not I mind ERP, so with that in mind, I feel somewhat obliged to myself and others to post in here. Bear with me, I may just write a horrible post because of it.

The line with this is hard to define because people tend to think in all sorts of ways, I've been in events that really just screamed ERP/Fetishes on the background without anything done over the public channels. It was just guaranteed happening out of sight, with a hint at most within the public channels due to either gender-changing potions, theme of the event or some other factor. I'm not aiming at anything event or person specific here, and I didn't mind it all that much - But at the same time, the line became hard for me to follow and I recall asking a GM during such events whether or not some character emotes where within that line or not.

Prostitute characters? They shouldn't be allowed, but at the same time, they always will be rolled. If a character is not renting themselves out for cash (best wording I got at the moment) then a character will be rolled for an instant-meet-and-hook-up scenario to end up in ERP, which is basically the same thing. Sure, you may not get paid IC-wise but the toon is still rolled for sex. I've rolled such toons, I've met with such toons so I'm not going to pretend I haven't breached that rule. I used to be fine with that, lately I'm just tremendously bored with such characters and stopped seeing the fun in it. It made me somewhat sad even personally, to have poorly formed characters meet up just for the sake of doing it.

Should such stuff be mentioned, either in public channels or adult? I'd say no again. As much as I 'enjoy' ERP, and romance, and have no problem with doing it, everything I do is over party and it admittedly irks me to read it from other players. It feels like a breach of respect, to yourself and to other people when you openly start mentioning your companions, what you have been up to and if you are up to such things right now. I don't care if its over public channels or Adult in which conversations about sex can happen, I still don't want to see you typing out that you are taking it in the rump.

Show some respect, to yourself and to your partner by keeping such things to yourselves.

Truth or dare.. I've only really done it IC with toons that had befriended mine and it was good fun. But even that was done over party for the risk involved, it is one of those games that just have the chance of going in 'that' direction, so why wait till it does?

Nudity within the RP? It depends. If a person states they are undressing for whatever reason then I have no problem with it. If a person states they are undressing, to show off their nice *insert cup size* breasts, wide hips and cute tush then hell, it should be over party. The details is what makes it go from normal RP to more erotic RP from my perspective, and describing a person's features in that way is a start for ERP.

I'm sure I forgot something, and I must state this is my opinion. What I deem to be a respect breach may not be deemed so by others, and I'm sorry if I worded it poorly or halted this abruptly, I am not sure what else to write.

Edit; I actually recall a character of mine after writing this, who had a background as prostitute. Kylianne. Realizing that, I'm actually pretty disappointed in myself. Go figure. She was played very differently then a prostitute, and I don't recall a single event where she took a bribe for such things as she made that oath to herself to never do it again, but fact is that it was there in her history. I haven't played the toon in ages, comparing myself between then and now, I wouldn't ever RP the toon again either. I'm just being honest here before I end up with a finger pointed at me (perhaps justified, as I forget too much stuff what I've done), rendering the rest of my post invalid as I come across as a hypocrite.

Edit: Line crossed out till I get some clarification, may be intending things I don't mean to intend here. Ignore it till I understand the situation a bit more.

[Hexproof]

I'm going to limit myself to answering the posed questions at the moment because I've just returned from work and I'm still waking up today.

Where do you think the lines should be drawn?

Wherever the players involved in the scenario feel it should be drawn. What I mean to say is that if asked, it should always be taken to party chat. And preferably handled with some semblance of reason and not just "DOOD WE BOTH OKAY WITH THIS RAMPANT SEXUAL ACTIVITY IN THE STREET?" "YEAH." "OKAY COOL. WE'RE GONNA DO THIS IN YELLS BECAUSE WE ARE SO ROWDY". It's all about common courtesy and reasonable-ness. Personally I take things to party chat when things go beyond a PG-13 rating or just beyond what I consider "publicly appropriate". The limitations on RP from the standpoint of sexual content should be limited only by what the involved parties see as reasonable limits, and any party that can see the RP in question counts as involved, whether or not they're actually interacting.

Do you think we should be more strict on this?
Not unless it becomes a problem of epidemic proportions.

Do you think that prostitute/etc. characters should be allowed?

Yes, but I feel it needs to be handled with care from all perspectives. Sexual RP and ERP are not the same thing, and a prostitute character can be immensely enjoyable without any ERP being involved. It's a different viewpoint and a different aspect of a person, and so long as prostitutes or similar concepts are handled well I take no issue with them. Heck, I encourage them! People are by no means obligated to listen to me on this front, but I'm a large proponent of breaking away some of the stigma around overtly sexual characters, IE:

Promiscuity is a real thing, almost a cornerstone of human behavior, but it's often (in some cases rightfully) associated with Moon Guard two-dimensionality.

Where do you stand on this issue?

I agree with these people:

At the end of the day, the real victim of the far-reaching stigma of sex in RP are the more dialed back characters. In real life, people use their sexuality in different ways. Promiscuity is a real thing, almost a cornerstone of human behavior, but it's often (in some cases rightfully) associated with Moon Guard two-dimensionality. This is one of the cases where the calls of 'CotH is stifling!' may have some footing, but once again, the players have all the power to change it. The Gnomish Special Forces were hardly angels, yet they're some of the best remembered characters 'round. Maybe you'll have to risk being lambasted in a few private chats for having a character that wears pants a few sizes too tight, but maybe it'll spice some RPs up.

People are afraid to talk to each other openly, mostly because of the fear for their ideas and opinions to be rejected and criticized. Instead of trying to pinpoint these small problems like people breaking rules 1, 3 and 7, or sexual nudity, or 'grand exits', I'd really, really, -really- recommend that we try and look into the source - the communication problem we have. Hosting more OOC events where people would just meet each other would be great. Not Meet&Greet, that's not communication. That's acting, with predetermined scripts, and the GMs overseeing everything. We need actual talking, chatting, bickering over pointless rubbish while laughing about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an anarchist, but I don't want this to become an Orwellian setting we write in.

As for the prostitution, it tears me inside. I'm a believer of free concepts, but at the same time I feel as though a venue is just a snowball for abuse. I'll be damned if it hasn't happened already, but to have it open? It would be interesting to see such a thing in the right hands, someone using it as a serious character concept, rather than just abusing the idea wantonly for sexual pleasure. Even if it is heavily regulated, it still will be seen by many as a detriment, especially as a social judgement of the players behind the characters. The sort of social makeup and culture of the server may be too broad for such a thing.

Now I'm going to go get some coffee.

Pre-post edit:

Show some respect, to yourself and to your partner by keeping such things to yourselves.

This isn't really the thread for it, but I don't think it's appropriate to equate self respect with comfort related to sexuality at all. Out of respect for others I won't ever go around spouting about my relations with them, but I see it as no stain on my own self respect to be open about whether I do or do not have sex in the first place, provided I'm in company that is okay with such discussions. Equating self-respect with comfort in discussing sexuality is really really disrespectful to anyone who is okay with their sexual record, identity, etc. And that's all I'm going to say on the matter because as I said this isn't the thread for it, but at the same time I'd feel I'd gone against my own morals had I not said something here. If anyone wants to disagree my PM box is always open.

[Psychyn]

This isn't really the thread for it, but I don't think it's appropriate to equate self respect with comfort related to sexuality at all.

Well, what I'm trying to say is; Would you honestly go around in real life, strutting and telling random people through various means on what you have or have not done during such encounters? I personally would feel pretty disrespectful to myself if I went around and did that. That's me personally. It's not really the topic of sex, it is the context which it was in, a breach of privacy if you will between the two people even if I know that some people won't mind it.

Personally I feel such things are best spoken about with discretion, and see it as respectful act to myself and others to keep such things private. At the same time, I expect such respect that others do not go and yap about everything I've done with them, and if I were to find out someone does, they'd be in some big trouble.

Equating self-respect with comfort in discussing sexuality is really really disrespectful to anyone who is okay with their sexual record, identity,

It is not about being comfortable or not (I mean, I'm comfortable with sex, doing it and everything related. I just don't talk about it in details?), nor do I see it as disrespectful. I'm not seeing where I was disrespectful, feel free to clarify over PM really if you or anyone else feels like it.

Edit; I've just send you a PM, I'm admittedly confused as heck.