Dragons, Progression, and What it means to us! OH MY!

[Harmonic]

So, there was a discussion over the Skype CoTH group about dragons after I brought it up in the other dragon topic. Mostly about "Power" and what it means to be a player character... in WoW games and on CoTH.

I'm making this thread, well aware that there will be disagreements, so, let's all keep it civil, GM's and players alike. What I ask for here, is that we respect eachother, and not try to just rapidly shoot things down. Instead, let's discuss.





First things first. "Power". What the heck does that mean on CoTH? We can't have a Mary-Sue character--- a term I haven't heard on CoTH in forever, because it's become akin to a swear word in our RP community. But, what is a Mary-Sue? A character that screws with lore. A Mary-Sue, by definition, is one that's related to a story-character in an established lore setting, sleeping with one, interacting with them frequently, or fighting with them.

So, obviously we can't go out and fight... say, Wrathion. Even a large group wouldn't be able to---that's something lore figures would deal with, as the "Nameless heroes" typically don't -end- those fights. Rightfully so, it'd suck if we went all murder-hobo on the NPC's without interacting with the world.

Which brings me to my next point, and something fairly new CoTH has been doing.

Monitoring encounters with dragonkin. Not just Dragons, and Drakes---two things which I think a large group -should- be able to fight, as we aren't playing with the definition of Mary-Sue when we get there, but also whelps.

Many points were brought up. Good points. Whelps are accomplished mages, sometimes. They give certain groups a hell of a lot of trouble. They can swarm and the flights would monitor who is killing their children.

Thing is---we play level 85 characters. We -are- strong. We are strong enough mechanically that we could take on a lot of the world. Does this mean ICly we should flaunt this power, and take on things solo constantly? No. Does it mean we have a bit of what I'll call... "Badass wiggle room?" Yes. That means, if we get in a desperate fight with some black flight whelps, and narrowly make it out alive while killing a few in the process---IT SHOULDN'T BE A BIG DEAL.

"Rensin, the Black Dragon Flight would monitor that and hunt you!". Initially, yes. They would chase you out of their brood--- but they wouldn't come and find you. Why? Because the Black Dragon Flight is fighting -All of Azeroth- right now. THRALL is fighting against them, trying to restore the world. You -really- think because I killed a whelp, or anyone else... that they'd send dragons after me? If so, why haven't they done that to -THRALL- or anyone else for that matter? Keeping tabs doesn't make sense on that small of a scale.




NOW, on a grander scale, you're damn right. You're going out, slaying drakes and dragons, killing off entire black dragon broods? You're going to have some issues. And, it sounds like you'd have some fun issues.




Here's what I propose. We quit this crap with "power levels" that would embarass even Vegeta, and we start focusing -once again- on a case by case basis. Don't worry about monitoring what people do with dragons, because if it happens---because it'll happen whether or not you're monitoring it---you -will- notice it. If not right away, so what? You tell the person they are doing it wrong!

To get back on my proposal---I think we should focus on helping people with accomplishing these tasks. Encourage the natural story of Cata. Without even us players pushing for it---but the GM's coming up with events to usher it in. I know some have---and it's successful. Involve us in this lore, involve us in these things---and we will all have fun. Don't focus on "you can't" but "you can, with risk". That's more fun and palpable than being told "WE ARE WATCHING YOU".




Righto! That's it for now. I'll post more once this thread flooooods like I know it will.

[cartoonkarl]

What I remember being told was...

Player Characters are above the civilian masses because -we- play them. We are the hand behind their choices, we are the driving force of their goals and wants, and needs, and all the likes. Unless our character is supposed to be a common person our characters are already above the average joe. We may not be more powerful then lore figures (Of course) but we should be able to slay drakes and dragons. Mayhaps not the huge dragons (And even then we could kill them in number).

In Warcraft two and three a group of soldiers (I'm talkin' about 3-5 footmen/standard soldiers) could take down a drake/dragon in the games. In WoW the questing player character (Which follows the same rules as the average human adventurer) can kill Drakes/dragons at around level 20. Even if you claim the questing PC has the powerlevel of a lore-figre (Which is obviously not true, especially mechanically. Lets go attack Sylvanas guys) that must be at maximum level. At level -20- you can start killing welps, dragonspawn, and drakes at level 20 in the Wetlands (Pre-cata) and at level 30 you can easily kill the named silver-dragons that roam around Hillsbrad.

Now you may say that levels are just mechanics, but when you create the questing character he starts as an average joe, joining the stormwind battle (If you're human) to fight for the Alliance on your home-front. You are an average joe, and you get thrown into killing orcs, you survive. From there you do some very menial tasks that an adventurer is known for. Your next biggest exploit is killing Hogger, and if you have read lore on Hogger he is a HUGE gnoll that is unnaturally powerful. And you smack the crap out of him -maybe- with another person.

I can go on and list your exploits all the way to Wetlands or Hillsbrad where you slay a dragon and you haven't even raided yet and are far from the master of your class.

One last thing I have to say, the Red Drake that burned down the entire Kul'tiras fleet does not set the tone for all the drakes. All drakes are born equally and there are some situations we have to bring up. The drake can fly above ships, can cannons point directly straight up? Nope. Is wood flammable? Yup. Well that there just kinda sets why the fleet was destroyed. And even then if you still consider drakes to be too powerful based off of this one instance f damage, I guess you could say that Lothar is too powerful for all that he has done. Ban the play of humans. Thrall as well. How about Kael'thas?

[Kage]

Heh. So I was one of those guys who killed a Welp ICly. Then a Drake. Both of the black Flight. Now, you should do this with GM approval (I didn't, I was so use to using different Bosses [Faceless, elemental Ascendents] that I forgot to ask about dragons) but the point remains that my character and who ever else was apart of this were literally chased around by a black dragon. Scary stuff. If you see a woman suddenly shift into a dragon screaming that you killed her children and trying to eat you, you run.

Dragons are -very- powerful. Drakeslaying is one thing, but a dragon is something else entirely. Now why did I bring that above point up? Cause it was noticed, and made some pretty interesting rp. Being chased by a dragon caused my own heart to beat OOCly. The entire group was watchign the skies for the Dragon to fly overhead or something. Though the dragon never actually flew, it was funny when someone freaked out cause a bird flew overhead and looked like the black dragon. We all were typing "NOOOOOOO ITS GONNA GET US" in the raid chat, serious at first, then more jokingly.

Give it a shot. Whats the worse that can happen, someone does something wrong and you tell them as such? It happens in the real world all the time. Why put so many limits here?

[FlyingSquirrel]

I would prefer it we stopped using completely OOC mechanics, I.E. levels, as if they have an IC meaning. They are scaled with the area they are most prevalent in, or the expansion that they are a part of. Otherwise, it would open us up to such statements like the Nefarian of Blackwing Lair, a mere child of a Dragon Aspect, being stronger than Malygos. Levels aren't really intended to have a direct IC counterpart, and we should not assume them to have an impact.

[Reigen]

I want to point out that slaying is not forbidden. We never said dragon slaying was forbidden. We'll never say it is forbidden.

We are saying you cannot one on one them and live. You can, as a group, take them down. 3-4 people for a whelp? Yes. 10 people for a drake? Doable. 15~ish people on a dragon plus NPC backup? Better make it epic!

However you do have to get it cleared with us before hand, so we know this is going on and we can propely react to it. What do I mean by properly react? Killing a dragon is a -big- deal. Something NPCs would chatter about on the street. Say the Grey Militia takes down a dragon with a big group, makes a big event out of it, has NPCs in there and everything. That's a big deal. We can use that to say, have a bar-tender give a member wearing the tabard a discount on the drink, of a free one. "Hey, I heard your part o' that group that took down a black dragon. This ones on the house, buddy."

It also means we could have black dragonsworn come around and muck things up, or the next event have one of the other dragons ignore everyone else to go for that group because they remember.

"But Regien, Dragons aren't that powerful."

Have you seen what happens when a dragon dies?

Because each creature has an intimate connection with the world around it, the death of a dragon is never a simple thing; it is a metaphysical event, driven by the creature’s natural connection to the spirit of the world. A dragon’s death can cause massive upheaval in the natural surroundings — earthquakes, surface lava explosions, a new lake flooding forth from a sudden crack in the earth‘s crust, and so on. Even young dragons, those who have not established as close a bond to the spiritual world, still make ripples in the fabric of reality when they die. Although these ripples are not always seen or felt by other races, a young dragon’s death nonetheless garners the attention of other dragons in the area — and creatures particularly attuned to the natural state of being that surrounds them.

Let me show that part again.

Even young dragons, those who have not established as close a bond to the spiritual world, still make ripples in the fabric of reality when they die.

Ripples in the fabric of -reality-. Not to mention any dragon nearby will know and come charging to the location. This is lore, folks. This is the sort of stuff you don't see in the game because the game gives you herosparklespecialness.

Not to mention they're smarter than our characters will ever be. They're not just mindless beasts.

The dragons of Azeroth are far more intelligent even than the humans who hunt them; they struggle to reconcile their metaphysical nature with the reality of the savage world they inhabit. While each dragon is a powerful entity, dragons also represent the origins of the world and were given care over various parts of Azeroth’s creation since time immemorial.

[Kage]

Then Blizzard mucked up on of their better events in which dragons are constantly dieing, and it's your job to plant a seed from the Red Flight to reclaim their body into the earth.

[Reigen]

Blizzard disregards a lot of their lore in favor of OOC rather than IC. Its not the IC stuff that's making them money.

[Kage]

Blizzard, stop messing with our RP!

But my point remains. A welp still isn't that powerful. If it was, they wouldn't be so guarded around mortal races. They mostly travel in packs, which means only creatures on a drake scale level are a threat. But they are guarded from simple mortal races.

[Reigen]

Whelps would more be a threat because...if you kill one, Momma and siblings are going to know. And they are going to zone in on that location faster than the whelp can hit the ground. Most areas that have whelps in them are also guarded by dragonkin, so its not as simple as going in, killing one and running out.

[Harmonic]

Mechanics are about all we've got to go on. My point remains that if we are realistic about this, it shouldn't be out of the realm of logic to kill a dragon, drake, or whelp. Problem is--- we need to have a feeling of empowerment. Everything can die, part of the fun of RP is the progression to getting to do something like that.

I've never said dragons aren't powerful. I've never said they are soloable. What I -am- saying, is that monitoring killing of a whelp to send dragons after us doesn't make sense. Drakes and Dragons as I said are event type stuff--- but we should encourage this, not discourage it by saying "we're watching you". Like fighting anything, we should use discretion and not be a murder-hobo. We can be badass and uplifted without being overpowered.

Beowulf fighting a dragon comes to mind---while not the best example, it's one I can put out there.

[Kage]

Whelps would more be a threat because...if you kill one, Momma and siblings are going to know.

Well that doesn't mean its going to take 3-4 people to kill one though. Just means you better be sure to have a escape route.

[Reigen]

We are a server that follows the lore. If lore tells us that killing a dragon of any stage is going to get every dragon within the area a very clear heads up that someone just died, then that is a consequence of an action. The same with killing someone in the city and they alert the guards.

[Kage]

Sept a dead person can't alert the guards. Also, if you do it in such a way no guard notices (Stab someone in the gut quietly, then sit them on a bench) you could get away with it. But we can't, which makes Assassin characters annoying and just not fun to play.

[Reigen]

We do say so long as you inform the GMs ahead of time, we are willing to work with assassination and city attacks. You just can't spring it up on us without warning! This is pretty much the same thing. You warn us, we say 'okay' and stuff happens.

Edit: I meant to say trying to kill someone and they manage to alert the guards. I just got home from work. Brain isn't working right.

[Grakor456]

A Mary-Sue, by definition, is one that's related to a story-character in an established lore setting, sleeping with one, interacting with them frequently, or fighting with them.

I just want to point out that this isn't the definition of a Mary Sue. To quote Wikipedia:

"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies" for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.

Essentially, Mary Sue-ism doesn't directly have anything to do with whether one knows lore figures or not: that is simply a symptom of a potential larger problem. Mary Sues instead are characters which are idealized to the point where the character is no longer realistic or believable: no flaws, too perfect.

This also only indirectly has something to do with dragon killing. It is a potential symptom of a character being too powerful or "badass" for our general RP on CotH.

Yes, in quests your character slays drakes rather casually and with little trouble, especially in Cataclysm. However, PCs on retail also are designed, wholly intentionally, to be larger than life heroes that are known through-out their entire faction (Wrath makes this very clear: by the time the PC has gotten to Northrend, he/she is very well-known for his/her deeds.) It would sort of be the equivalent to playing Beowulf, Hercules, Gilgamesh etc. from the great epics of the past: potentially fun from a singular perspective, but quickly becomes problematic in a roleplaying situation where -everyone- is some immensely powerful hero whose deeds are sung by every bard on the planet.